Do you count\strum or play by just feel?

Community Hub General Questions (not lesson specific)
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Curious how many play rhythm\lead parts just by feel or do you count & use strum pattern?
Band mates and friends i talk with, some are green and some have circuit with well known names experience, have mixed opinions regarding this.
Just like in my primary world of drums, there are those allergic to metronomes\click tracks (“they are sterile no feel”) and others that live and die by them. Personally, it seems time\space is what music is all about and finding ways of manipulating and bending it is quite fun not sterile.
It’s fascinating how you can play just one chord\sound or pattern yet pull so much out of it using dynamics of strum patterns\counting\touch\rhythm. Song bottom end\pocket\groove is this. Learning the guitar strum patterns has also opened new doors into how i listen to guitarist and play drum rhythm’s; I now try to sync up drum dynamics to strum patterns.

One cat said ah bass and drums are the rhythm guys, but i feel all players make that happen. Cool to see Justin teaching this as many seem to ignore this musical magic.
i appreciate it’s juggling many hats when playing and counting can be a real mental cluster F, but we all have to hit 1 and the same time right? :slight_smile:
So do you count\strum to time or wing it on feel?

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I confess.
I likely play by feel, mostly.
Generally, I gotta feel the music though to play by feel. If I ain’t feeling the muisc, then I can’t generally play it.

That said. I do count it out too.
If I got a hard part I’m trying to learn, especially one that I’m not getting. I will go back to actually counting it out. Sometimes down to one beat at a time. Do one beat, get it right, do the next beat get it right, put them together, get it right. Cont. though what I’m trying to learn to play.

I also do use a metronome. For sure if I want to play a song the best I can, I’ll likely be using a metronome. If I’m just playing for fun, I probably don’t use a metronome.
If I’m playing with others, which I havn’t done in a while. But when I did (collab via www), I for sure used a metronome. imho, to play with someone else, ya gotta have a base timing that all players agree on. That’d be a metronome, or drums or a conductor. imho, playing in time is a absolute must do when playing with others.

fwiw, I play mostly by my self these days. I’ve found that for many songs I do, I have to mix rhythm and lead together or the song leaving something missing.

All that said. Mostly, I play by feel. If I’m feeling the music, my playing comes off as music. If I ain’t feeling the music, I might as well put my guitar down and come back and try later…

fwiw. I’ve played some instrument since I was in 5th grade or so. I’ve had music lessons of some kind all through my jr and senior high years.
Timing is something that I’ve had to work hard on for as long as I’ve played any instrument. While I think timing comes natural to me. In reality, timing don’t come natural to me and when I play against a metronome, I rediscover that fact near every time.
A metronome does in fact keep ya honest…

Timmy, this was a good question imho.
I’ll be looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

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I play more by feel as well. Whatever the music says to do, that’s what happens. The strum patterns, the dynamics, up or down; it’s not really planned, nor does it need to be. If it sounds good, and feels good, it is good.

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The answer for me is yes.

I tend to prefer to know the strum and work through that slowly, after a while it becomes something I do by feel. At first I have to think about it, then later it just comes to me.

When I was first learning, I tried the metronome and it sucked all the fun out of playing so I stopped using it. Tried again six months later, same thing so I dropped it. Then after a couple of years, I had played along with a friend who was far more experienced that I was and he complained that I was speeding up through the song and he was trying to pull me back.

So I grabbed the metronome and this time it worked. I played that song probably 50 times with the metronome. Went back to rehearse it with my friend, after we played it through I asked him about my tempo and whether it speed up. He said no, I was spot on.

Now, if rehearsing with others and the tempo is all over the place, I’ll pull out the metronome (my preference is a Boss DR-01S) and get us all in the same groove. For some, it’s a bit threatening as the metronome doesn’t lie.

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It doesn’t surprise me that there are varied opinions and practices in this regard. Whereas I find identifying notes extremely hard, I usually just need to hear the rhythm and pattern to be able to play it, and remember it. For me, Justin’s approach to learning this aspect of music has always felt unnecessarily slow and mechanical. Counting beats has never gained my anything, because I’m already there. This is in complete contrast to the trouble I have with transcription, where assistance, tricks, examples and hundreds of hours of testing myself seems to have no benefit; I’m still on the starter blocks. So, my conclusion is that we are all rather different, and that if you recognise that, there’s no need to feel that you’re no good just because of one area where you’re below par, you just need to find your own way through.

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Totally get what your saying and play the same way. Amen, if you don’t feel it, it will never happen.
Nobody to jam with or just not into it? Sounds like you kind a want to get your feet wet again :guitar:

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  • I think they call that improv!! :rofl:
    Good deal making friends with the metronome. To make it fun, I’ll try different grooves to the click…behind, on top etc.
    So many options as well, check out all types of backing tracks off of Tidal or Spot. It’s always a good way to keep ones internal meter dialed in.
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Absolutely, everyone is going to have their own style, touch, feel and way of putting it all together.
The question posted hopefully came across as something of interest and by no means judgemental of some ones individual style.
For me, its how I keep myself on track. I have a great sense of time but honestly struggle with getting that “smokin locked in everybody on their feet groove”. I can find it, play it when others start it but still a pretty shallow toolbox when it comes to kicking things off

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I am lucky enough to have two consistent but totally different groups to meet with. One is pretty advanced player, lots of stage time and so the dynamics and feeds are right there to lock into.
Second mates are like family and met playing 15-20 person acoustic folk, Americana round robin call out.
So fun, nobody cared if one slipped, we all clapped and moved right along, So a few of us formed this core 4 piece where the goal is to play genre not song list. You know we want to be the next “wrecking crew gang :guitar: :musical_score: :maracas:”. Problem is we got a RHYTHM player that cant\wont count (confusing for him, but hey, confusing for your mates to!!)
Interesting, he knows how but just doesn’t feel like it a RHYTHM guitar thing.
He’s got pretty good skills it just seems counting is one thing that presses him hard. What are thoughts about using muted neck and just thumping out general feel and flow? Being his first band exp at age 70 is pretty cool for him but a lot to learn and take in.

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Great idea!

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As soon as you find out what physical connection works well for you, keeping rhythm becomes more intuitive. In many cases people lose track of rhythm because they want to play something that is too complex.
“Rhythm is king” right?!

Layer upon layer you add some complexity. Focussing on playing notes or “exact like the record” will distract you from what is more important. Get to play, feel, predict and control the rhytmic part. Counting is crucial when learning, to check what you do lands on the right spots. Then, you need to feel that pattern, being able to vocally reproduce that is a great help.

I use counting to explain something in a grid but when playing, counting confuses me and puts cognitive load on me. Above all that, I can’t can’t as fast as we play :smiley:

I always had issues with counting music and for me “phonetic patterns” (does that exist?) are a more intuitive way to make an “audible visualiszation” of something. It’s also the language I use towards our drummer :smiley:

If I would write it would be something like this, with some dynamics in loudness to emphasize. As always, the silence in betwee matters just as well.

DUkudu DUkude bam bam
DeredeDeredeDerede splash

I guess I hear that in my mind as well when playing.

  • Part of it is memory
  • part of it is anticipating the drummer because you know his style but having a luxury is a luxury for timekeeping.
  • sometimes it’s just hearing some internal beat, like you would imitate a bit of beat in your throat along with a song. (hard to explain, kidna like doing “nods” when humming)

Without a drummer, I manage to keep time, also in the more complex syncopated parts while singing but I can’t seem to tap my foot while doing that. At least, it requires a lot of “concious” thinking.

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You read between the lines very well Timmy. :wink:

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Hey Jim,
If your looking for a pool of players, oddly enough, at least around here, Craigslist generated more then FB for those interested in playing. All the music sites seemed to be “bots” and useless. If you have open stage, sometimes you can cherry pick some players from there as well. Heck, i even ask people in music stores if i hear a good riff being played. Yes, like always, it took some interviewing to find the right folks. It was interesting the number of players looking…some were very experienced and tired of club\bars\road but still wanting to to play and others just getting started. Hope you find something!

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[quote=“LievenDV, post:11, topic:417078”]
“Rhythm is king” right?!
[/quote] - 100% and keen observation about how complexity can mess everything up yet how breaking things into layered parts can work at resolve.
There are “phonetic patterns” at least for drums - “Boom-Chick-Boom-Boom-Chick” or “Trip-o-let, Trip-o-let”, not sure about guitar sounds “zing zing zzzim” (intro to elp just take a pebble - :joy: )
I think being able to verbalize (always count or say phrases out loud) is like writing things down and helps us internalize. I have sounds i make for hats, snare, kick etc. I use to sounds to “sing” the part. Its like having a roadmap of where your going.
Nothing beats being able look at someone and know where they are getting ready to go next. That is actually inspired this whole thread as it just exploring 1 more tool in the box to connect with the style of other’s…be it a nod, are feet tapping, a strum, body language or a progression.
Perhaps that’s why musicians seem so quirky to others; Rolling down the road tapping feet, nodding heads and singing gibberish!

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Indeed, always interfacing the facets in intuitive ways…often subconciously!

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I sort of feel the question, as phrased, is a bit misleading. It’s not a question of one or the other and I would venture to say that no good guitarist plays without feeling the music. It wouldn’t sound good unless they were feeling it.

But as others have noted, sometimes (or some people) need to work with the count to get a tricky rhythm correct. This happens to me all the time when learning a complicated strumming pattern or a tricky lead lick – I may need to count it to make sure I’m getting it right. After some amount of practice, I can internalize the rhythm and can play it without counting, just by feel. In this sense, the answer to the original question is “Both”.

Of course, some folks are just rhythmically gifted like @MarkPeters above, who can pick up rhythms quickly just by feel. Lucky them!

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I think I tend to lean this direction, too.

I’m still pretty beginner and every single aspect of my playing can improve, but the way @LievenDV describes it is a lot like how I’m learning I prefer to work on things.

Counting, foot tapping, and the like are far too much mental load for me when I’m also trying to play (and forget about trying to sing, too). I agree that I tend to start early on with a count but as I start to put things together, I move on from that pretty quickly. I was also recently introduced to the phonetic/syllabic patterns and that also resonates with me better.

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My suggestion is THINK when you PRACTICE, count, play with a metronome, do technical stuff, slowly and carefully.

And FEEL when you PLAY - just let it happen.

If it ain’t coming out right when you PLAY - then you need more PRACTICE :wink:

The above is actually a pretty big idea - I should do a whole lesson just on that!

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I play by feel for sure. The rhythm comes naturally, whether it’s the correct rhythm or not is another matter!!

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Hey Nate,
Our one guitarist is in the same boat as you. Trying to learn songs, band dynamics and here i am going on about strumming\accents and counting it puts him into melt down. He as well was also trying to get the whole singing thing down as well and it was a disaster. As Justin mentioned about focusing, when he did his own material, he could sing.
Now this will come off as bragging but its not meant to be. Drumming is poly-rhythmic or to put it another way rub your belly & tap your head.
If we get it wrong EVERYONE LOOKS AT US AND SCOWLS!!! One chord\note played in time will blow the doors off masterpieces that are a mess timing wise. Audiences like the comfort of familiarity.Its really worth the effort imho
The old saying of tuning your mind first is the most important instrument in your arsenal. Couple of thoughts, count to songs when just listening and not playing. Maybe try to center yourself, bamm right in the middle of your chest and think outward one limb at a time like the pendulum on a clock swinging back and forth. Get that rolling first, slow and easy, and fit everything else to that flow. I make mental images, wind blowing, water running, Mardi Gras etc to try to help how i might count something. I love Dobbies “Black Water”, what a cool flow. Like you, it seems counting things you relate to is much easier, for me1&2 rolls easier then up down. Counting out loud also will make a big difference but loved one and pets not dig it so much. Keep at it, soon it will be second nature