Do you really need an amp? Think twice if you are just starting

[J.W.C]

@mc

There is just something nice about a good valve amp, but I would not recommend one for a beginner or somebody who needs to limit the volume. [emphasis added]

While I wouldn’t suggest it for a beginner (mostly because of expense), you actually can get limited volume, headphone play, stereo output, and stereo line outs from a valve amp with its power section maxed out. (And that’s even with valve amps that don’t have any built in attenuation or cab simulation.) For example, a Two Notes Torpedo Captor X will do all of that when paired with your valve amp (you can even load your own IRs if you want to). I’d highly recommend it for anyone who has valve amps they want to play and record at home.

Like I said, probably not the best option for most beginners, but still a great option for limiting volume while enjoying valve amplifiers.

[Guitarman1963]

Just out of curiosity how long have you been learning guitar???

[Richard_N]

How about unamplified acoustic?

My start was on a Yamaha silent guitar. This is a steel-string acoustic without a conventional body to amplify the sound of the strings. Unplugged it still sounds like an acoustic but without the tonal range you’d expect from an acoustic, however, if you plug in a set of headphones or an amp, that is when the magic starts! There is a modeled version of one of Yamaha’s high-end acoustics in the preamp that you can blend in with the under saddle piezo pickup and the sound is simply glorious!

[MAS4R]

There is no question that there has never been a better time to start guitar as a hobby. So many great options. Now, trying to do it professionally it is the opposite but this thread is not for people headed that way.

[MAS4R]

Revisiting this topic.

As I keep trying more devices, including the Headrush MX5 which I owned briefly but returned, here is my thinking now that EVH released a more home-friendly version of the 5150.

I think that for anyone who is just starting the Fender Mustang Micro is the #1 device to get going. Unlike the Boss Pocket GT, it is extremely convenient and though this will vary by person, I think it has better amp sounds. In addition, a plugin like the Revalver 4 for 25$ can offer some rather great sounds–and not just for the price.

Basically, for 100-150, one can get going with a plethora of sound options instead of a limiting basic amp unless that cheap amp is the Orange Micro.

And from there, I would personally go to the “real” thing be it something like the Iconic series 5150, the Orange Rocker, the Fender Blues Junior OR the Fractal FM3, Boss GT 1000 or at least GX 100, and so on.

Personally, I will wait a few more months so I can learn more and make a better informed decision but the appearance of the 15/3.5W iconic 5150 with proper emulated out for headphones and studio monitors changes everything for me and puts a real amp back in the driver seat especially since the modeller that suits me best–the Fractal FM 3–comes with caveats (quality control, basic warranty, harder to repair, etc).

My point is that I am struggling to justify the mid-tier products, be it on the amp or on the modelling side of things. Obviously, others may feel differently.

[rorystrat]

I have not read through the whole of this thread, so apologies if already covered, but one important issue that might have been ignored is tone. Once you reach a certain level having a good or great tone can inspire you to play better. That is pretty dependent on equipment. Somehow I’m not convinced you can get a great tone through headphones.

[J.W.C]

@rorystrat

Somehow I’m not convinced you can get a great tone through headphones.

Personally, I dislike playing through headphones. It’s not really about the sound, itself; I think it can sound fine. However, I find that playing through headphones makes me feel less connected. With an amp, you’re not just playing through the amp, in some ways you’re also playing the amp and the way it responds and moves the air, as well as playing the guitar. Playing a simulated amp through headphones is okay, but feels like its missing something, to me. YMMV.

[Majik]

@J.W.C

Playing a simulated amp through headphones is okay, but feels like its missing something, to me.

I wonder if you would get the same feeling of disconnection if you were to play a real amp into a load box or, even, through an iso cab and microphone into headphones.

IoW, do you think it’s the headphones and not having the amp in the room sound, or the amp sim that’s the main issue?

Of course, you may not be able to answer this if you haven’t actually tried this.

But, in my experience, it’s mainly down to the headphones giving a difference experience. Note that I pretty much started only using headphones (as a lot of people have) and I can live with both. They are different experiences and, these days, I prefer an amp in the room, but headphones is fine too.

Cheers,

Keith

[RobDickinson]

@rorystrat

Somehow I’m not convinced you can get a great tone through headphones.

Yet a lot of critical listening is done via headphones.

[J.W.C]

@Majik

I wonder if you would get the same feeling of disconnection if you were to play a real amp into a load box or, even, through an iso cab and microphone into headphones.

IoW, do you think it’s the headphones and not having the amp in the room sound, or the amp sim that’s the main issue?

I’ve got a Captor X and I’ve played my tube amps into that (including into headphones). I think it’s mostly the headphones and not having the amp in the room sound, moving the air and making that part of the loop between the guitar/amp/player. To me that’s a visceral thing that I just don’t get with headphones.

For amp sims I think it depends on the sim. Sometimes I can tell it’s a sim and sometimes I can’t. When I can tell, the give-away is almost always the feel/response, rather than the sound, itself. I was pretty impressed with the Boss GT-1000 Core’s options for emulating the feel and response of a real amp. It can be quite convincing. (FWIW, I’ve found my favorite way to use the GT-1000 Core is to put it into my Katana 100/212, bypassing the Katana’s preamp and just using its power amp and the speakers. There’s a setting in the GT-1000 Core for that exact use case with that exact amp. But the GT-1000 Core is quite good direct, too.)

[MAS4R]

Well, I am glad I keep steering the pot

I bet so much of this depends on personal experiences, preferences, and goals.

For example, I much prefer the two amps I have had via the emulated out and studio monitors and thus stereo over the mono “real deal.” True of the Blackstar HT 5 which is tube-based as well.

Obviously, if one has been used to amps for decades, that’s itched into their feel and perception, it is part of “who they are” and that’s totally normal and fine.

For those of us dumb enough to wait till their late forties to start (and dealing with hand issues partly in result of that!) and who play alone at home, emulated outs are hard to beat.

As for an objective sides= to this, studio headphones surely win for critical listening but that’s different.

My hands situation (ultrasound today, results who knows when) motivates me to stay on the brake and not commit to either a premium modeller or a 5150 amp until after I get a feel of what’s next and until after I have developed to the point that I can consistently play well the rhythm portions of at least ten songs that I LOVE (I don’t play any basic “strumming” songs, I am talking Enter Sandman, Fear of the Dark, Aint Talking Bout Love, Jamie’s Crying, Little Dreamer; I don’t count simpler songs like Highway to Hell or Dio’s Rainbow in the Dark and Holy Diver in that number).

[rorystrat]

Just coming back to tone, a lot of which is determined by volume. Back in the day the tone from a 100w stack was awesome but they weren’t called trouser-flappers for nothing. Trying to achieve that at home levels is proving impossible. Going off demos on YouTube is no good cos most of the time those things are cranked. Even on 7watts my Tiny Terror is loud but compared to a 100w Marshall it’s also very thin.

[MAS4R]

Ok, speaking of tone… the 5150 is supposed to give you its proper tone at low levels because its tone comes from the preamp. Or this is the standard opinion on the internet.

As for old Marshalls, I have come to reconsider my assumptions.

My heroes back in the day:

Blackmore: as it turns out, heavily modified Marshalls, he says he hated the stock ones
Van Halen and Lukather: heavily modified Marshalls
Vai: not Marshall
Sykes: Mesa Boogie

Perhaps Vivian Cambell alone of “mine” actually used a typical Marshall JCM 800.

[J.W.C]

@MAS4R

I much prefer the two amps I have had via the emulated out and studio monitors and thus stereo over the mono “real deal.”

I’ve experimented with stereo amp setups. I think it sounds pretty cool, but it can be tough to translate that impact into a band or full song mix. Depends on the song, instrumentation, et cetera.

When using two amps I’ve had better luck with the wet/dry approach (e.g. a dry Marshall and a wet Fender together). Wet/dry/wet is pretty cool, too, because you get the whole wet/dry thing, but your wet part can take advantage of stereo delays and reverb and such, which is where the stereo thing seems to shine the most, anyway.

I’ve used wet/dry with amp sims, as well as with real amps. If I recall correctly, this recording used two amp sims in the Boss GT-1000 Core) set up in a wet/dry configuration. I believe I added a stereo reverb in the DAW, too.

[MAS4R]

Thanks, can you explain for a newbie how exactly you set up dry-wet or dry-wet-dry?

Thanks!

[RobDickinson]

@rorystrat

Just coming back to tone, a lot of which is determined by volume.

These days people use attenuators so they can run tube amps at high volumes.

But Speakers tend to have some input too and will sound different if driven hard.

[J.W.C]

@MAS4R

Thanks, can you explain for a newbie how exactly you set up dry-wet or dry-wet-dry?

Probably more info (or more talking, anyway) than you’ll ever need:

Wet-Dry & Wet-Dry-Wet Amp & FX Setups Explained – That Pedal Show

But in short:

Wet/Dry: You send your signal to two amps. One amp is “wet” and gets effects like reverb, delay, and modulation. The other amp is “dry” and gets things like compression, drive, wah. This setup allows you to have lots of wet effect dialed in without the overall sound losing attack and definition and getting muddy or washed out (because you have one amp devoted to a crisp, dry signal).

Wet/Dry/Wet: It’s the same as wet/dry, but you have one dry amp and two wet amps. The wet amps are set up in stereo. Exactly the same benefits as wet/dry, but you can utilize all the cool stereo reverb and delays and such and turn them up surprisingly high without muddying the overall sound.

[MAS4R]

Since I started this, I feel obliged to offer an update on my point of view now that I have 1,000+ hours of practice and 2+ years. Mind you, it is mostly unplugged or high gain practice.

I think I am gonna walk back what I said in the OP.

After owning a proper starter amp for 1 year, namely a 5150 Iconic 1x10, and a full-blown pro level modeler for 9 months, a Boss GT 1000 Core, a Fender Micro ultra portable practice headphones amp as well as a bunch of pedals that I have all sold, etc…

I now agree that once you get going for real, a good amp is easier on a busy person than a good modeler. If you get the amp you want, from there you just tweak it a little but you are fine within minutes. It is like changing tire sizes, wheels, brakes, body armor on a 4x4. But you still have your 4x4 and not another brand or model.

By contrast, after 9 months I still do not have the time to really fool around with the 1000s of options on the Boss 1000. I have effects and all sorts of presets for use with the amp and a few presets I can use for metal without the amp. That’s it. But you change an IR and it is like your Toyota is now a Wrangler. Totally different animal. The amp is just so easy.

But the trick is, don’t buy beginner crap. Get a decent digital whatever to get started and then get straight for the amp your heart desires.

I set the 5150 Iconic in W-D-W using the Boss 1000 and 2 studio monitors that take the pitch shifted signal and any effects while the amp speaker gets back the dry signal. Easy peasy. Only works for home, sure, but it is all I need. Same effect as pro setup but at home level. Incredible, enormous sound.

I will sell the Iconic though it is a perfect practice amp IMO and get a 5153 50w 1x12 combo with power control from the factory. Then I will use the Boss 1000 more and the amp less simply because I do not want to use a big time amp to play practice routines. But when it comes to the sound that I really want to use when I have kinda learned something, the proper for the person amp makes it so much easier…

But a “beginner” amp like my first tube HT5 that is not YOUR thing can really turn you off as it happened with me. There is no fixing that, if you bought the wrong car for yourself, no number of car mods will help you, same here if you get the wrong beginner amp for yourself, no pedals or EQ will fix that.

Unless you are collecting, guitar hobby is cheap, get the right gear early. My 2c

[HappyCat]

@MAS4R

I now agree that once you get going for real, a good amp is easier on a busy person than a good modeler. If you get the amp you want, from there you just tweak it a little but you are fine within minutes.

Agreed. Good followup Steve. Hind sight can be 20/20 for sure.

A simple, good sounding amp can really be the ticket. Adj. the tone stack (or maybe not) a bit, the volume a bit and away ya go!
More than that really may not be necessary.
I think of it like, what do I adj. on my acoustic guitar. Nothing, it’s just me. It’s what’s left. How I play.
All the effects in the world won’t make me sound good, if I can’t play. And them effects won’t cover up my errors either. I gotta learn to play straight up clean imho.
After that, perhaps a few effects for some spice, but to me, too many choices seems to be just overwhelming. Ya may never find that perfect tone. With a good sounding, plain amp, the tone ya get is you and how you (me) play.

The choice is yours…

[Peterctid]

I have a 20w Fender Champion, which took me a while to find the sound I wanted, but now I have it the convenience of turning it on and playing is really enjoyable.
I have a traditional set of pedals- reverb,delay ,overdrive and chorus. All in all,I think my set up is in the region of 300£,so a significant outlay, but Ive taken my time to build my pedals(none are especially expensive but they sound good-for home use).

I recently added a Yuer 10w amp(with blue tooth) for backing tracks and listening to Justin. Its my front room amp and has headphones.

Knowing what I know now, I could probably get by with just the Yuer.I’m 60 now now,so am wise enough to avoid most of the more outlandish claims of amp and pedal makers.

So,I’m not ampless, (definitely age related), but also the enjoyment of not being stuck infront of a laptop.