I feel disheartened at my own progress having watched Livestream #3

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Hi Stuart,
I’m sad to read the despondency in your posts above :cry:
All the encouragement and practical suggestions from fellow community members seem to bring little solace.
Rather than simply chime in with more of the same, I had a quick scan through your posts to date as well as your learning log. This has been an ongoing issue for you, perhaps even since you started?
Your Learning log from Dec 21 (which refers to a previous post ‘Progress… what progress’ with a defunct link) includes the following observations:

I find myself in a position where I am stuck and can’t really move on…
I have been practicing songs and some are OK but don’t sound like songs. I don’t sing… Dull and boring is the phrase, I think…
Seeing other forum members who have done all the beginner’s course and moving into intermediate at a similar timescale as me, or others posting videos every week, doesn’t help… I know that I shouldn’t compare, and I generally don’t, but just sometimes it gets to me!!..
Someone asked the other day why did you start with this playing guitar thing and to be honest I don’t know. I know that I won’t get to the heights of others on here and am just plodding along but don’t really have any end goal. Perhaps I should…
There are a few negatives with this post but to be honest there isn’t that much to smile about at the moment. It’s not that much fun :frowning:

I have no idea whether your guitar playing skills have progressed much over this period, but it appears that you feel much the same way.

The big question is of course, what should you do now? :thinking:

My first thoughts are: although you have shown great persistence (timewise), but if you keep doing the same thing, you can expect the same kind of results. You haven’t been experiencing the fun/enjoyment of learning, which is the whole point for most of us.

I have a concrete proposal for you, should you wish to accept it:
How about having a one-to-one coaching lesson with one of our Justin-approved teachers, @Richard_close2u or @LievenDV? As they know the course inside out, they’d be in the best position to assess where you are and discuss ways of helping you to get where you would like to go.

It’d be my pleasure to gift (a first) lesson to you. Actually, I’d see it more as a small token to whichever teacher you chose. (I’m unlikely to avail of their tuition, as I’d be afraid they’d get me back on the ‘straight and narrow’ where I might lose the joy of self-discovery :roll_eyes:)
I really think this might be helpful for you to work out what you want from guitar. Please take the time to consider the merits of this offer.

The alternative is looking more and more like putting the guitar back in its case, either temporarily or permanently, which might not be the worst option if it is bringing you unhappiness.
Cheers, Brian

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What style of music do you like? There is no reason to continue on with the blues lessons if you’re not into the blues. I
Frankly it is a waste of your time. Concentrate on the style of music you want to play and learn to play it.

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If I remember correctly your grandson was showing some interest in learning to play guitar. If that is still the case maybe it would be super fun to run through the course with him and learn some songs together.

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@Stuartw
Hi Stuart
I imagine you are feeling a bit down right now with this thread ballooning today, and wondering what the hell to say to all these people who have have responded to your plight.
I think the first thing to note is that the community is right behind you and rooting for you.

Brian @brianlarsen has come up with a brilliant suggestion (and very generous offer).
A teacher will be able to help you find your direction and help you on your chosen path. Don’t dismiss it. As Brian says, give it some thought.

James @Socio suggestion about learning alongside your grandson is also a great idea. I remember when you were talking about it, you were very enthusiastic about it.
A teacher may be able to help you with that particular path.

Take your time Stuart. No need to worry about replies here just yet.

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That’s so incredibly awesome of you Brian to offer that.
Let me split that cost for you.

a great and warm gesture @brianlarsen
for that I’ll split the cost for you (sorry @Richard_close2u as I kinda coax you into offering the same :p)

@Stuartw yes, besides this Community, Richard or myself can help you put some things into perspective, see what a good next step could be and mostly; what kind of angle of approach would be most fitting

My other students get the offer to be taken on a path to explore to express themselves. To go from “copying/reproducing songs” to “taking it apart, rebuilding it and make a house of it that is their own”. That’s how you learn to express yourself making music; you can either copy the sheet music or you can learn to understand, absorb, adopt and re-release it :wink:

When you find that spot, the thing “that other person” does becomes less of a thing to compare with, because it will be apples and oranges…

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@Stuartw

Stuart.
I never cease to be gratified and find so much life affirmation in this Community when people rally round and offer their help and support and a big virtual hug if needed. You are getting the love here my friend.

I’m going to give a dose of tough love.

Rather like Brian, I decided to take a look back over some (not all) of your posts and topics. I know that I have often helped you, and answered many of your questions, across many of the lesson specific topics over the last few years, so I hope you know that my words and advice are coming to you from a good place. You have posted in lesson specific topics up to Intermediate Grade 5. You have written that you have worked though the beginner grades. Today you write this:

I’m sure you know what I am going to say!
I am going to shriek.
I am going to exclaim in upper case letters.
I am going to go experience palpitations and a raised blood pressure.

You know my mantra. I have previously written it in direct replies to you.

Learn songs, learn songs, learn songs.

You haven’t heeded my advice and I wonder and I fear that you have pushed on along a meandering road to nowhere having taken a wrong turn many miles back.

Just this. You’re lost. And you’re unsure how to navigate nor what tools you can use to navigate.

Rest assured, there is a route out of your current place and you can make your way back to a path that will allow you to confidently and reliably continue along your guitar journey. And it is this.

Learn songs, learn songs, learn songs.

I wrote this in response to Wetchie a couple of weeks ago. I am sure I have written similar in other topics too but one reverse link to former advice will suffice.

More tough love … you have certainly given time to your pursuit of becoming a guitar player. I must ask if you have been taking the time, the correct and focused time, on the things you need the most? Not the things that come along next in the course. Not the things that pique your interest. But the things you need the most?

I hope @TheMadman_tobyjenner will not mind me invoking his story here. And he is not alone in this for sure. he has admitted, on many occasions, to spending too much of his time for too long a time playing and practcing the wrong things and getting nowhere. He reached a point in life, and in his guitar path, at which he made a conscious decision that he needed to be more disciplined and follow a proscribed learning course with a determination to do it right. Only by doing that did he set aside years of aimless wondering and begin to build some skills and gain confidence and happiness at what he could do with guitar.

You have said it yourself there Stuart.

You are not getting anywhere and you are not having fun.

What is missing from your guitar life?

Songs.
Progress.
Direction.
Fun.

What one thing can tie all of these together and turn them all around from negative to positive?

Songs can.

Learn songs, learn songs, learn songs.

ps
@brianlarsen
You’re a good man. :slight_smile:

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That’s for sure!

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Hi Stuart,

I’m sorry that you feel disheartened but rest assured you’ve inspired me. Hope you don’t mind my little dittie.

We are where we are

We get up in the morning, we go about our day
We hope that some guitar playing, will feature on the way
We go about our daily chores, until we get them done
And sometimes when we finish them, we have some time for fun.

We get our old guitar out, we twiddle round the strings
And if we’re really lucky, the whole guitar just sings
But sometimes things don’t go quite right, our fingers get all tied
We run off to a corner and then just try to hide

So looking on the bright side, you’re better than you think
Think of where you’ve come from, you might be on the brink
Your journey is your own and the time it’ll take, it’ll take
Your achievements are amazing, so give yourself a break.

Best wishes on your journey

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This. We all have very different lives, spend different amounts of time and effort with the guitar.

Primarily it should be about you and your enjoyment and learning. It never does to measure yourself against other artists because you will never be, and can never be that other person.

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Regardless of what Stuart decides going forward, this thread underscores the value of this community. People are supportive, helpful and generous in both time and money.
Stuart (@Stuartw) , I do hope you are able to find joy in your guitar journey!

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Oh and we all, every single one of us, including the absolute masters, have bad days and get disillusioned with our own playing.

Dont sweat it

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Hi Stuart :grin:
I too found this a little heartbreaking and sad to read.
A lot of good advice is allready given. And i would take up Brian and Lievens offer in a heartbeat if i were you :grin:

I too have some of the feelings you describe from time to time. I try not to compare myself to others, but from time to time i feel like indont progress. What works for me is to go back and play a couple songs that i allready know and just work on those for a while. When i do that i dont learn new songs or practise anything new.

Maybe a step back would help? Work on some «easy» songs and see if you can «spice» it up a little bit. Maybe see if you can find a song that you could sing along too… pretty sure that would help youre motivation…

Wish you all the best in guitar journey Stuart! and please stop comparing youre self to others, that is pure poison.
It would for sure kill all my motivation and joy of playing guitar if i did the same.

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I have been where you more than I care to admit. The nice thing about Justin’s course is you go at your own pace. Just stay committed to practice as much as you can and you will see improve. It may be slow and small improvements but it still is improvement. I sometimes practice the things I need to improve on even if it is old lessons. I have to take a break sometimes when I get down on myself because of my arthritis pain in in my thumb but when I get back to practicing it may may take a few days to feel like I’m back on track. I also want you to remember, this is fun. Have fun learning at your own pace. There is always someone who is further along than you but there is someone else further along than those people too. Stay strong and have fun.

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My last 2 cents- @Richard_close2u has already given you some free good (albeit hard) advice.
Take your time going over what he said :thinking:
If you feel like it, take Lieven up on the offer and see if that gives you any new perspective.
If not that’s fine too.
It might feel like everyone here is telling you what to do, but you did ask, and in the end it’s your decision.
Hope you find the direction you’re looking for :smiley:

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Richard I am more than happy for you to quote my pathless bewildered years. Yes tough love but you impart an important message in your response to Stuart.

So Stuart, reflecting on your past and recent comments about perhaps not being able to play the songs you want to play, I will once again reiterate something I have said so many times before and for sure in my early days in the old forum. And I learnt this from many old hands like @Richard_close2u and @stitch back in they day…

The most important thing is learning how to play the guitar, the whole guitar not just the songs you like. But to learn to play the instrument. Once you can do that you can play any song.

I spent too many years before I found Justin learning bits of songs, similar to what you have described. No direction no goal, learn a bit of this learn a bit of that. Justin gave me structure and a logical pathway when I rocked up here. But he also gave me a load of crap songs that would never be on my radar, let alone playlist. But heck he gave me some gems!

My biggest leap forward was playing song I had no interest in. Apologises to the folks who have read this for the thousandth time, as I keep banging in about it, You may not like the songs Justin presents but he does for a good reason. It builds your song playing ability that can be switched to any genre. Learn to play the guitar, the world is your oyster.

Stuart you have been here for a while, me longer. If you have read my posts, listened to my recordings you know I am a die hard rocker and Southern Rocker at that. I know Justin has revamped the Beginner lessons, added a Graded structure that may pressurise some folks (must do the exam / nah not me !!) but learning songs as @Richard_close2u repeats is the core. The Beginners Songbook series is full of many songs I loathe and would never listen to by choice. But going through the old Beginners course it became clear that learning songs that may not float your boat, teaches you skills that can be applied across the board going forward.

I freakin hate Britney Spears and Taylor Swift leaves me cold but learning Hit Me One More Time was a repeat of a progression played in many rock songs. Back To December was a challenge of verses, pre chorus, post chorus pre bridge post bridge bridge. Man there was so much going on it was a huge challenge to play end to end. But taught me so much about song construction. It not only opened my mind but my ears.

Like me the songs you want to play may be above your current play grade but I’d urge you to learn any song that is and embrace your ability to make music and enjoy the experience.

Then record them and post the here for feed back and constructive guidance. Folks will the be able to nurture your direction, This is something you have not done to date if I recall rightly but will give you much needed feedback and support. Even if its a few bars of Three Little Birds it will be enough to provide some helpful guidance and feedback.

I think this would go a long way to unlock your negativity and self doubt. We have all been there and taking that first step of recording and sharing our abilities is a huge step forward but pays huge dividends with the feedback you receive.

Take this as you find it. The ramblings of the Madman’s journey has been often repeated, it is just that a journey of ups and downs and many crashes.

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When the going gets tough, quit. It’s OK. Go have fun doing something else, there is no shame in it. Get a guitar wall hanger and enjoy the ornamental aspects of the instrument. Don’t store it away in a closet. We all hope you stick with it, we’re pulling for you, but ultimately friends want friends to be happy. Live your best life. :slight_smile:

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@TheMadman_tobyjenner

Great post Toby.
The oft repeated meandering up and down journey with many false starts and restarts and aimlessly crashing and then finding this structured way of learning even though it means learning crap (to you) songs along the way and having been in a place where Stuart (and maybe others) are now and found your way through it……

But what about now?

I’m not asking about WHAT you can do, I’m more asking about how what you can do makes you feel? How does it feel to be able to pickup the guitar and knock out a song or many songs?
Is it a personal feeling of well-being?
And/or a shared feeling among family and friends and here in the community?
Or something else?

It’s all very well the experienced telling us what to do and how to do it - but if we also heard about where it could take us and how it might affect us, it could well help us shape our own individual goals and aspirations and find that pathway through the rocky ups and downs.

Ps. Having read through this - it would be interesting to hear others with experience answering these questions as well as Toby.

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@BurnsRhythm a good question so I’ll chip in.

So I’ve been playing I think now as long as Toby (so 12+ years I think) and I reckon we must have both started out with Justin about the same time. I had never played guitar before learning with Justin and other than a short period of a year where I had lessons alongside Justin have only used his lessons.

My own personal experience is this:-

  1. Beginners course. My only target was to learn to play guitar in some form. found the “classic” beginners course great for this. Nice, short groups of lessons with clear targets and practice. Took me a year plus to get through it but by the end I had learnt and forgotten lots of songs. I was recording lots of songs and posting lots of songs on the community here.

  2. Intermediate Course. The old course (and to a degree the new) is a lot less structured in some ways and you have to start setting your own goals. I struggled a bit but worked through it without necessarily adopting all the techniques. I was still learning new songs and still recording and sharing lots in the community. The songs were getting more complex and I was improving.

  3. By end of the intermediate I was struggling a little bit with focus and what to do next. I would tend to learn new songs, record them, share them and then move on to the next. I didn’t really share my playing with anyone other than my good wife and family. I’d spent a lot of time understanding how to use a DAW and also building multi track songs which was really good. I had gone through quite a bit of gear with amps, multifx pedals, separate pedals, audio interfaces, mixers etc. All really fun and interesting.

There were a few songs that I played a lot but a lot that were forgotten. I had to think about what my next goal was and I decided to look around for perhaps others to play with or groups I could play with. To be honest I floundered a little. I met up with a few people and we’d practice a few songs and then we’d stop meeting for some reason, I did a few busking festivals just playing some easy songs (which was a big step forward in all honesty) but then again drifted. I would add my playing whilst much more fluid and confident had not moved on lots… I used barre chords where I had to but I wasn’t confident in them.

  1. Lessons. My next step was to try and see if I could get through at least one or two official music graded exams. I thought this would add some structure to my practice and also give me a new focus. So I got myself a teacher and he thought I could probably do grade 4 so we started on that. Took me about 6 months and was good at expanding my use of barre chords, power chords and some lead/solo work. It was hard to get the songs right but that was good because it was stretching me. I wasn’t overly enthusiastic about his teaching approach and to be honest I had to get him focussed on structuring the lessons otherwise it would have drifted. Overall a good experience and I ploughed on with starting Grade 5…but unfortunately literally a couple of weeks before I was due to take the exam we went in lockdown and so ends the story of my graded exam journey.

About mid way through doing my first exam I also thought I’d dip my toe into trying to find others to play with again. At this point I was sure I wanted to play live (or at least give it a go) and managed to find a bass player, similar level of experience and we started meeting weekly and putting some songs together with a view to attending an open mic. The big difference for me is it forced me to improve my playing. All of a sudden barre chords became more fluid. I started to practice harder and more difficult songs became easier. It was a driver to improve that I was missing.

We got a nice few songs together…then covid hit. However we did keep practicing those songs and kept sharing tracks back and forth. I had something to really focus on and the start of a setlist appeared.

Fast forward to 2021 and we finally got out there and did our first open mic (me, the bass player and my trusty digitech Trio+ on drums). Wow were we nervous! It is very nerve wracking playing that first song…but wow what a buzz you get when you’re done. The other massive positive is that it opened us up to the local music community…lots and lots of people, some with lots of experience and some with less but all just getting out and playing songs. Not too disimilar to the online community here!

Since then it’s been plain sailing as the goals are easy. We managed to add a drummer in July of 2021. Then we started to expand the set list. Got out regularly onto the Open Mic scene. Playing new songs, getting feedback and trying to improve. It’s added a new social dimension to my life and bought lots of new friends locally. We all go to the same OM and events. It has as I’ve already said given me the physical community that we get online here. In addition we’ve continued to improve and strived to get gigs (paid and unpaid) for the band which we’ve managed to do this year!

What a very long post! hopefully you can see that the thing I had to keep reflecting on was “Why am I learning guitar” “What do I want to do” and more importantly “What do I want to do next”. It can seem pretty tough at the start learning guitar BUT you soon get to a point where you can knock out a passable version of song…it’s what you do next that is the difficult part. Setting yourself goals is key and going back regularly and seeing if those goals are still appropriate is key as well. Everybody’s journey is going to be different but it’s a matter of identifying what going to keep you interested in playing and what’s going to make you work hard to improve.

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David

You could be asking the wrong person. I am not very emotional and treat most things as matter of fact. How do I feel at the moment ? Pretty much the same as I did when I started.
Frustrated, impatient, irritated, happy, satisfied. Most of all really pleased with the strong foundation skills I developed very slowly working through Justin’s Beginner and Intermediate courses. Shouting from the roof tops “look at me” ? No just quietly getting on.

Those same “beginner” frustration are still with me, as I am constantly learning new skills. They seem to take ages to develop and nurture, some seem unreachable but I keep trying.

It took me literally decades to be able to sing and play. When that suddenly clicked it was relief more than anything. Then recording that journey progress here, through my original Diaries series, brought feedback, guidance and support. That helped my confidence and I can now approach a song, with the deep foundation skills, learn it reasonably quickly and then learning “how” to apply the vocals. But some can be a right swine to syntonise, so back to frustration. Some folk seem to be able to do that from day one almost, good on them, as I am really pleased for them.

Right now I am probably as frustrated as Stuart. These are all work in progress.

I can’t play fingerstyle and sing at the same, so most song I do at the OMs are basic chords,
I can’t easily move from rhythm to lead and back again, especially if I am singing.
Now I have been starting to learn solo piece it takes me ages to play them to tempo and there are many that are not there yet and need constant work. Just like learning your first few chords.
A roadblock in my Acoustic/Delta Blues journey after a promising start. New set of techniques are proving a challenge. All thing I can do individually but combined in a way that I am struggling to apply. So I might spend 30 minutes on one simple two bar phrasing and still not nail it. More frustration !

Preparing for an Open Mic, sometimes becomes a chore and takes more time than it should. Maybe I am a little bit of a perfectionist. I’ll spend many days just experimenting with tone and fx, others will just plug an play. Same with vocals, with Fx, what is the sound I want for this song ( I don’t like the voice I hear in my head) too much reverb ? Too little.
Get the words right, get the chords wrong. Get the chords right, get the words wrong. Start rehearsal recordings and RBS kicks in and there more frustration. Finally a good record dry run, some times just hours and minutes before the show, Relief. Get that great buzz playing to a “live” audience, then start kicking yourself for the errors you know you have made but know one spotted. Relief frustration joy.

Wash rinse repeat all of the above, until I breath no more. Nothing changes.

But I take stock of what I have learnt and not what I haven’t, that will come. This is a never ending journey and it will always be a bumpy road. You cannot sugar coat that and as I have said endlessly in these pages, there are no quick wins, no short cuts, just plain old hard graft and dedication.

We are all different and learn at varying speeds, there is no answer to the question How long? Also, when comparing yourself to others, years months and days are immaterial and self defeating, unless you have had a mirror image learning and practice routine that has been identical.

And don’t forget there are many students here that like me have arrived after a stop start journey. Played in their younger years and decided to restart, so they are not starting from scratch, so its never a level playing fields.

Anyway probably gone on for way to long. Now where’s my guitar,

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Well, there is one: Remove the bar of expectation from the outset and simply enjoy the ride from day one, rather than hope for a destination :smiley:
If anything, I find it harder to try and recreate those early eureka moments of “Wow, an actual chord!.. Goodness, that’s what a scale or harmony is! I’m going to write my first ever song and it’s gonna be great!” (a bit like a junkie trying to chase the euphoria from that first hit? :roll_eyes:)

The Golf Open was held just up the road from us the other week and I am convinced that I enjoy whacking a golf ball around the public course, a zillion over par, once a year on a sunny afternoon more than the world’s elite do at the pinnacle of their powers. (Well, apart from the winner maybe :laughing:).

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