Yep, this is exactly what I mean. And similar with say, using vii-I-ii doublestops with these tonicised V7 chords.
I wasn’t implying that theory was the enemy of creativity rather I was doubting my ability to apply it in an improv. For example, when Joe Pass improvised over a jazz chord progression, that could change chord each bar even half a bar or even on every beat, did he have time to think “I need to pick notes from this or that arpeggio”. Now maybe he did or maybe it became intuitive with practice. Eitherway I doubt my ability to think like that. Maybe @Richard_close2u could advise if this can be developed.
On that I am of little help Rory. I’m not a jazz fan, have never spent time learning its intricacies and that incredible technical / musical fluency and dexterity is beyond me.
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I bet he first endlesly played the progression and knew it inside out and inside again, then thought/practiced/reflected/listened to everything he could play over it, then played it a zillion times picking favorite sounds over passages of certain form, then was able to pull it off “effortlesly” when needed. The effort (A LOT OF IT) comes when no one is looking/listening. My view anyway. Try improvising over blues without learning any lick, by theory or by feel. Then learn and practice 100 licks for a year and try again. Would the second try be natural, effortless, spontaneous, emotional etc…
Maybe like this (not blues related). You put on a single minor chord. You can play all 12 notes for hours and see which you like “by ear” and make phrases and memorize which you like and have their sound in your mind. Or you might “know” that dorian, phrygian, aeolian work over minor chords. So you try out each 7 note subset for phrases. Maybe you find one of them to suit your mood. Then you can try add a chord to make the progression but retain the mood. Again you can fish around for hours or days which chord to add. Or from knowing which modal sound you like you would know from theory a chord that fits with the first one. Than you jam your mode over these 2 chords with a distinct sound and you fish for phrases you like and add them to your arsenal to play over that mode, just like one learns licks that fit blues progression. You repeat for hours a day for years. Works by ear search, works by knowing some theory. But relying on theory gets you jamming modaly much quicker. And you build your vocabulary for a given mode/mood/progression. Each time you improvise over it you draw phrases out of your vocabulary, mix and match, just like you would to improv over blues once you have an arsrnal of licks/phrases you tried/tested/practiced for a lot of time.
I dont have a great ear, i have no time to find out stuff for hours each day just by ear, but i learned some theory along the way. So i made up a small 2 chord groove and improvised on the spot using dorian only from my “theory” knowledge. Hopefully it conveys the dorian mood. It is an example of how theory helped me play something (whether good or awful) truly improvised on the spot. If i had time to explore for a couple years 5-6 hours a day i bet i would become a decent dorian mood player. I work with what i have in my 60 mins a day.
When i learned basic triad “theory” i put on a single chord track and played just those 2 neighboring triad notes mostly not even thinking about the scale which “fits”. Again good or awful this is my “theoretical” jam over a single chord.
@sly Thanks well played and rather thought provoking. I have not embraced modes, (although I slipped in Mixo earlier I only worked that one out this week) I probably do play modes though. The jazz improv that I did on my jazz learning log was straight off the top of my head and dragged from my memory bank somewhere. No idea what I played but a lot of blues based pentatonic probably. Defo not jazz. I did manage to throw in one Cmaj7 arpeggio via conscious effort.
Your style of music is not something I’m au fait with at the moment. I’m firmly steeped in blues progressions and particularly late 60’s early 70’s British blues players. Branching into more jazzy blues has made me look at what I already know from a theory perspective and particularly how to play the changes. I guess I better re-enrol and finish PMT!
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Thanks for sharing this Roger, very interesting video and much to explore.
@sclay Shane an interesting topic and one of those eureka moments I guess. I too have never thought of the non diatonic aspect of the standard Blues I7 IV7 V7, just accepting the Blues for what it is. Food for thought for sure.
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nice stuff in your log there. one of my long term goals is to mess a bit with jazzing up the blues or rocking up the blues or… picked blues as kind of a starting point for so much and enrolled in blues immersion. learned a couple of min7, maj7, 7, dim grips. and sometimes do a couple ii-V-I cycles just to enjoy those beautiful sounds. but, since i have 60-75 mins a day have to pick my battles and stick with them. Theory or no theory you are doing fine. I just wanted to show what i meant by “theory can/might help” getting somewhere a bit quicker or at least offer some avenues to explore quickly if one cant afford listening and trying out by ear all day long (wish i could). 
Yes, blues in A is really in A. The Western European concept of keys does not apply to the blues. An A7 chord in the blues is not the V7 chord in the key of D, it’s just… an A7 chord. It is most likely to be the I chord in A or the IV chord in E. The V7 chord is a completely optional feature of blues. There have been attempts to explain the blues retroactively using Western tonal theory or jazz-style chord-scale theory, but your ears should be enough to tell you that these are the wrong tools for the job.
There is not a fully fleshed out theory of blues harmony, though there are some proposals. The most plausible one I have seen is that blues derives from West African tuning systems based on the natural overtones of strings tuned a fourth apart. In A, that would be the overtones of strings tuned to A and D. The harmonic series of A gives you A, E, (mildly flat) C-sharp, and (very flat) G. The harmonic series of D gives you D, A, (mildly flat) F-sharp, and (very flat) C.
Whatever the origin of blues harmony might have been, the main thing to take away here is that Western European concepts of tonality and key do not apply. Not only are you routinely playing minor thirds on top of major chords, but you are very often bending those minor thirds sharp so they are really neither minor nor major.
Someone else in the thread linked to a blues tonality treatise that I wrote, but I recommend reading this more accessible version instead: Blues harmony primer – The Ethan Hein Blog
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Exactly.
I always feel a sting every time somebody says “bend it a bit out of tune” when talking about the blues bend/curl. Even great musicians and music teachers say that. I guess it’s understandable because they speak of it in relation with the chromatic scale and try to apply western music theory on it. Which is what most people who are trying to learn the blues can relate to. But one should remember that the blues did not originate from western/classical music.
The world is full of music that is not bound to the chromatic scale and that is traditionally played with instruments with endless notes, like fretless string instruments (like the Oud, the great-great-grandfather of the guitar, or even vocals). It is quite possible that this also applies to the African music that influenced the blues (if some has source to confirm that, that’d be great). It’s about how it feels when listening to it. But of course, being exposed to that type of music reprograms you brain to get used to these notes and accept them, in the right context.
Firstly hi Ethan @ethanhein and welcome. Writing as a Western European, I have grown up with the blues and it is totally familiar to me so to my ear it sounds fine. The dissonance of the 7’s is probably what gives it the edge.
[quote=“sly, post:38, topic:333556”]
I just wanted to show what i meant by “theory can/might help” [/quote]
If left to my own devices, in a blues improvisation, I will invariably target the 7. That gets to be rather predictable and as bad as always landing on the tonic/root. It is good to open yourself up to other concepts to break out of these ruts. For me these discussions and Justin’s jazzing up the blues lessons have helped me open my ears and re-evaluate what I have done before. This is neither a marathon nor a sprint as there is no finish line.
If the theory of blues as just intonation intervals is true, then blues musicians are bending their notes to make them more in tune. Certainly my experience of playing the music is not that I am intentionally playing dissonances, it’s more like an alternative system of consonances.
The best source on African precursors to the blues that I know of is the book Africa and the Blues by Gerhard Kubik. I summarize some of it here: The blues and the harmonic series – The Ethan Hein Blog
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Hey Rory,
Im certainly not implying any one person thinks a certain way. Just a general theme that usually arises when the theory v playing topic arises.
Certainly when doing improv etc, there’s obviously no place for any theoretical musings. Its more of an organic thing I think where theoretical frameworks, concepts etc, over time, eventually seep into the subconsious in a practical way, and come out in your playing; spouting ideas that perhaps would not have happened otherwise.
Cheers, Shane
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If anyone wants to continue learning whats in the Paul Davids video Rodger posted Justin has a series of lesson on these concepts.
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Appreciate all the input from the various viewpoints. With a topic like this, there’s been the inevitable subtopics that have evolved etc, which is all great, and pretty much expected with a broad topic like this. Can only be of help to all of us.
I suppose the main gist of my post was to bring to the discussion table, that, by acknowledging and exploring the ‘parent’ keys of these 3 dominant 7 chords, it appears to open up alot of opportunities for endless diatonic harmonies within the Blues, while at the same time potentially enabling one to see them at work, particularly in more modern blues.
All very fascinating, and years of learning and experimentation ahead…
Cheers, Shane
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So to take this a step further with my limited theory knowledge, if you play a G major pentatonic over the A you are almost playing the A minor pentatonic plus the 9th. The G is also the flat 7 of A. Playing the D major pentatonic over A adds the 9th again and the 6th. All harmonically correct. Someone will tell me shortly this is a mode…
If playing a solo which switches between major and minor those are all available note choices.
Expand G major pentatonic to incorporate all the notes of the G major scale, switch the focus entirely so that A is the root note - you have A Dorian. A minor pentatonic plus 6th and 9th.
Similarly with the full D major scale. Make A the root and you have A Mixolydian.
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Welcome aboard 
Kudos for writing the article as well as jumping in the conversation here.
I only skim-read it and followed the first bit on harmonics before glazing over but may well come back for a more thorough read.
I like the way it sounds ‘logical’ 