I didn’t wantvto hijack this lesson specific thread any more than I already have.
But it Richard want to move it to a new topic I’m fine with that.
1 Like
No problem Rick. I’ll see what @Richard_close2u decides to do first.
I certainly do agree with you though that the Pattern1, Shape 1 etc naming conventions are unhelpful in the end.
In fact it was you, a few years back, that first really introduced me to the CAGED shaped naming conventions. One of those big ‘aha’ moments for me.
Cheers, Shane
1 Like
Maybe a new topic, away from the minor pent lesson thread , though it is all relevant to how Pattern 1 part of the chain. And how it is just one big pattern.
“CAGED or EDCAG - Why is E Shape Pattern 1 when the fretboard starts wirh an Open C Shape - Discuss”
Yes. The chosen start is arbitrary and down to convention.
Wow, really. That surprises me. As the catchphrase has it, say what you see. All I saw was the CAGED sequence beginning at ‘E’.
I hold no pretence to have invented something, useful or otherwise. I have no memory of the first time I wrote EDCAG but don’t think I would be far off the mark if I thought it was in a post seeking to help someone understand CAGED and / scale patterns.
I agree 100%.
It has been mentioned that C major is the only CAGED shape that can be played in open position. That holds only if the keys of C, A, G, E and D are the only ones included and all open strings must be a part of the pattern.
If any of the twelve keys are included and if even just one open string is enough to describe as open position, these are all possible.
(Note, I’m on holiday away from my computer so I don’t have access to my software. These images come from an online source and you need to read the uppermost notes as open string notes.)
E-shape key of F major has five open strings.
D-shape key of Eb major has two open strings.
C-shape key of C major has six open strings.
A-shape key of B major has one open string.
G-shape key of Ab major has one open string.
I was scratching my head at first with Stitch’s comment but now I get it.
Simply put
Q.Does the C CAGED shape play the C major scale in the open position.
Ans. Yes
.
.
Q.Does the A CAGED shape play the A major scale in the open position.
Ans. No, this is not a CAGED shape.
.
.
Q.Does the G CAGED shape play the G major scale in the open position.
Ans. No, this is not a CAGED shape.
.
.
Q.Does the E CAGED shape play the E major scale in the open position.
Ans. No, this is not a CAGED shape.
.
.
Q.Does the D CAGED shape play the D major scale in the open position.
Ans. No, this is not a CAGED shape.
.
.
The chords that define the CAGED shapes can be played in the open position. But only the C CAGED shape contains the chord and the major scale in that position. Therefore it makes sense to start with C CAGED. Sure, you can show me the E chord in the open position, but you can’t then use it’s associated E CAGED shape to play the E major scale. You can only do this with C CAGED.
At least I think that is the point Stitch is making. I’d never noticed that before.
3 Likes
@Matt125 thank you Matt wake up this morning and found you have saved me a lot of time.
@Richard_close2u see Matts answer.
1 Like
But does it really make sense Matt? This is why I’m interested in the actual logic.
Ascribing ‘default’ status to the C shape simply because is it has a specific, unique property due to its position only, is not a reasoned argument.
Its an observation.
Particularly when there is no additional logic to reinforce this . None that I have heard, read or seen anyway.
On its own, its simply a product of physics only, and not fretboard logic, and music.
One could, with equal merit, say that E, the lowest pitch string, and the lowest pitched fretted root in any key, is the logical entrance into the CAGED system.
This position has additional cohesive logic that supports it in relation to how the guitar is tuned, octave shapes, the cyclical nature of music etc.
Im certainly not suggesting one is right and the other 100,% wrong. I am suggesting though that, given what I see presently, E has a significantly more logical, and musical argument than C; not a start, but a 'default, or base. In the same way the C is default or base in the Circle of Fifths.
If there’s additional support for the significance of the C shape, then I’ll look forward to hearing it. I just cant see it at present.
Cheers, Shane
You are bacing your reasoning based on your personal journey.
Heres a video of Chet Atkins teaching beginner guitar students in the late 60s or early 70s. The scale he is playing is C Major.
This method of teaching was quite common back them.
Is it definitive proof. No, but it does show that around the time the CAGED System became popular the first scale taught to beginners was the C major scale.
No one is saying that if you find EDCAG easier to remember that you’re wrong.
Here’s a video that uses every acronym at the end.
Also the CAGED System is based off Major Chords and Scales not pentatonic scales.
C’mon Rick, to say its all based on my personal journey, and simply dismiss the sound logic I presented, is pretty disappointing.
Not sure where I said CAGED was based on pentatonics.
We’ll leave it at that. This is going nowhere.
Thanks for the videos. I’ll check them out.
Cheers, Shane
This statement is what got me involved in this thread. It’s not an arbitrary sequential spelling convention.
It is how the fret board is laid out and it just happens to spell CAGED, or AGEDC or pick one of the 5 chords shape and keep the some sequential lettering.
To call it an arbitrary sequential lettering spelling is just as dismissive.
Even though Justin starts his CADED Lesson series using the E shape is it just a coincidence that he’s chosen the C major (8th fret root) scale to teach it.
Just to add my 2 cents:
The preference for the C-Major scale as a starting point - despite we are talking about CAGED or not - arised probably due to the fact it’s the only Major scale without accidentals and therefore easier to play on piano and alike instruments. This somehow was transferred to scales on other instruments, too.
We should keep in mind, that CAGED-concept probably was invented long after players just played the guitar as is. So it’s not that the fretboard is designed to fit the CAGED-system, but the CAGED-system fits the fretboard nicely, if that makes any sense. But maybe this is getting a little too much in the philosophy on henn and eggs. 
To me, both view points are valid and none is more logic than the other. The guitar gives us so many options to play scales, not only with CAGED-shapes (even though they are really comfy to play). When it comes to the naming of things, it is as everywhere in every field: Some folks call it this, other that and neither is wrong. It’s just a name tag. For me, referring to the E-shape, A-Shape etc. is just a little clearer as referring to Pattern 1, 2 etc.
YMMV. 
2 Likes
Tomayto, tomahto.
1 Like
I’ve been trying to follow this conversation but it lost me some time ago.
One thing that came to mind though was where do the Chord Explorer lessons fit into this as Justin notes these as part of the CAGED system - https://www.justinguitar.com/modules/chord-shape-explorer
Yep, bang on Lisa.
Should we not be looking at CAGED, or any other method, as just a stepping-stone to greater things?
Those methods are a good way of learning to navigate the fretboard but you hear of folks getting stuck in boxes.
In Justin’s lessons about learning the five scale patterns he talks about linking the patterns and eventually seeing it as one whole pattern rather than five individual patterns.
1 Like
CAGED gives you an eagle-eye top down view of the entire fretboard as an integrated whole;as a practical framework of navigation.
How you internalise such a framework, will determine how you see the fretboard.
ie. how you navigate these lower level stepping stones.
2 Likes
I wrote something relevant in a topic about scales recently… in respinse to this.
Good point and a very fair question.
Both of the scale patterns in Grade 2 use open strings. In that sense they are open position patterns, not movable.
NB - Technically that is a simplification and they are movable - more on that below.
Justin is very keen for beginners to develop certain skills and knowledge early on:
1] knowing the notes names of the open strings and fretted notes up to and including fret 3;
2] being able to play riffs and single strings;
3] beginning to explore a little of the sound of scales and a taste of playing a scale in an improvisatory style.
Both the E minor pentatonic scale and the C major scale reinforce all of those.
Only when the full modules that cover ‘major scale learning’ and then ‘minor pentatonic scale learning’ come along does Justin reset and start from the conventional Pattern 1 of each. He proceeds using the CAGED system of five patterns.
I think that informs Justin’s method but I can only guess, not speak for him.
@stitch in asking for a source I was making a genuine enquiry and not being argumentative.
@Matt125
I am a great fan of the A chord and the A-shape scale being intertwined so that both coexist and one can be seen as the source of the other depending on your start pount (@Lisa_S chicken & egg).
But I do not see the value in insisting that the A-shape major scale (nor the G, D or E shapes) are deficient or sub-optimal because their entire scale patterns are not quite available in open position.
I am not advocating for any shape / pattern to be primary or numero uno. I see CAGED as circular with five potential entry / exit points. I merely observe that in my experience, the majority consensus and convention in teaching is that the E-shape is also described as pattern 1.
I totally see the merit of C major being first. Its seven-natural notes structure makes it easy to study as a first step. It may be ideally suited to piano / keyboard too - though I have a suspicion that piano players do not like it as ir omits all black keys, thus offers no 2-black-3-black navigational guides for the fingers that others keys do. On piano, C major is a featureless landscape.
…
@stitch I’m familiar with that video - I wrote an extensive forum topic using it as inspiration some years ago. C major is a great beginner scale on guitar because the scale is right there where the beginner chords are. There are six easy beginner chords (thinking of Fmaj7) that give the main diatonic chords of the key.
G major also has beginner friendly diatonic chords, apart from Bm but that can be llayed without a barre using only four strings. There is a version of a G major scale that also sits in open position… though it does require one fretted note at fret 4 and is not, strictly, a CAGED shape.
Both scale patterns are great beyind beginner and lend themselves to melodic fingerstyle playing.
Who knows why E-shape has become the de facto pattern 1. Like most conventions, I suggest the first occurrence has been lost to the annals of music study and has just become what it is now - an arbitrary choice, no doubt supported by strong rationale, that has taken the form of a rule.
3 Likes
Hey Rick,
I’ve never said the sequence was arbitrary. And I’m honestly not being dismissive. I always respect your input.
I simply still can’t see how the C shape is in any way a ‘starting point’ or ‘default’, that gives rise to the name CAGED. The logic simply isnt there for me.
The logistics of the fretboard say EDCAG for me, in a cyclical system.
Anyway, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one Rick, but that’s fine. I appreciate your time, as always. I’ve learnt something from the discussion; and perhaps some others have as well.
Cheers, Shane
4 Likes
I agree ,it’s a continuous cyclic pattern so as long as you understand the order of the patterns it irrelevant which “letter” you start on. EDCAG makes more sense to me but if others prefer caged good for them. People think differently and as long as it works for you who cared.
I remember you trying to call me out for thinking in 7 modal caged patterns but regardless of your view it worked for me. Think and let think 
Yes, it really makes sense. If you give me time I can put some diagrams together to better explain it. But before I do that I’ll ask a question to you and all the others supporting the idea that E CAGED shape should come first.
Why is E CAGED the best option for starting the CAGED patterns on the fretboard when :
- It produces the F major scale.
- It doesn’t even have the E major chord within it.
- It produces the E Locrian scale
Here is the shape
Here it is in the open position
I have to be honest I didn’t get it at first.
When stitch posted “The CAGED System start with the C Major shape because it is the only Major scale shape you can play in open position.” I was thinking that it didn’t sound right.
Then BurnsRhythm posted “You can play any Major scale in the open position” and i thought to myself “exactly, that’s correct”
Then Roger posted “not from the point/eyes of CAGED”
So then I stopped to think about it. Stitch was right. Of all the CAGED shapes, only the C CAGED shape in the open position builds the major scale from which it gets its name. Brilliant!
EDIT: A shape in the open position builds Bb. G shape builds Ab. E shape builds F. D shape builds Eb.
3 Likes