I like this a lot:
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This is an “on holiday, don’t have an instrument with me, can’t just sunbathe “ theory exercise for me. I also hear “major scale” with the modes in series. However as one of my warm up exercises is roots/ 3rds of the major scale played linearly (i.e. on 2 strings going up the fretboard, rather than in one position) the series approach almost works for me - at least in terms of knowing which modes are major and minor. I hadn’t come across the circle of 5ths approach, but I think it may work for me.
Currently I’m (kind of) restricting myself to Dorian and Mixolydian modes (in addition to Major / Ionian and Minor / Aeolian). Mainly on the basis that they are the easiest scales to remember (minor and major respectively, both with a flat 7).
From a practical perspective I try to give myself song references and understand how the chords relate to the modal scales. So a song with chords D G and A at first glance looks like it is in D. But if when you play it, it sounds like A (V of D major) is the key centre, it’s probably in A mixolydian.
My song references for Mixolydian are:
Good Love is on the way (John Mayer) - A Mixolydian
The verses from Crazy little thing called love (Queen) - D Mixolydian (apart from the weird Bb that somehow works)
And possibly a new one for me that I heard playing round the hotel pool yesterday “Don’t you forget about me” (Simple Minds) - verses are in E Mixolydian (I think)
For Dorian my song reference is “So what” by Miles Davis which is Dm7 (D Dorian) and Ebm7 (Eb Dorian) for a lot of the song. Once you know the Dorian scale it is easier to think of it as improvising on 2 Dorian scales a semitone apart.
I’ll give the coloured circle of 5ths a day or so to sink in, then read some more.
Edit 1:
So after a couple of days and another read I’ve got the following:-
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The colour wheel helps
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Lydian (one of the major modes (I already knew that)) adds a sharp (the 4th) and sounds brighter
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The ones with flats (I.e. all except Ionian and Lydian) go anti-clockwise so (as per the colour wheel) are getting “darker”
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Mixolydian is major with a flat 7 (I already knew this).
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Next on “the dark side” of the colour wheel (I’m not sure the Star Wars reference helps, but something may come to mind😀) is Dorian. A minor 3rd with a flat 7 (so 2 flats). Again I already knew that.
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The dark side of the colour wheel keeps adding a flat. So 3 flats for the next one and as we have already used the 3 major modes it has to be a minor one. Applying some previously learned music theory, C minor is the relative minor of Eb (Eb major has 3 flats), so it must be Aeolian.
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So that must leave me with Phrygian with 4 flats.
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For completeness, I can forget about Locrian (or at least if I can’t, I’m probably playing in the wrong band
). -
For the 3 and 4 flat modes (Aeolian and Phrygian respectively) I need a way of remembering what the 3rd and 4th flats are. Maybe noting that the flats come in pairs when written as a scale will help. I can probably quickly remember that the 6th is flat in Aeolian by comparing A major to Am (relative minor of Cmajor) and that 2 of the 3 sharps in Amajor come at the end of the scale. So the Aeolian flattened pair are the 6th and 7th degrees. It’s not much of a jump from there to memorising that the flat pair for Phrygian are the 2nd and 3rd degrees. I won’t be able to do the mental gymnastics quickly enough whilst playing, but this will sink in over time.
Assuming I’ve understood correctly, that is the furthest I have ever got with the modes. The colour wheel really helped, so thanks for that @Richard_close2u .
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Hi Simon, thanks for checking it out - especially on holiday! 
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Brilliant way of illustrating this Richard. I’ve not seen this anywhere ( including on my previous visit here…minus points to me for overlooking/ forgetting). I’ve been on a ‘modal adventure’ the last 2 days…
This ‘silliness’ does more to explain modes and modal sounds than the volumes of nonsense presented by others. Again, brilliant exposition.
Cheers, Shane
Had a misadventure yesterday involving my Wolfhound, Marley, her lead, and another dog; no dogs were injured, but the human (me) suffered a nasty rope burn on his right hand, including one big white blister, and a couple of smaller ones to keep him company… 
So no guitar for me last night or today, so thought I’d delve headlong into some theory for a little while; specifically modes. And what better way to do that than watching/ rewatching some of Justin’s PMT modules, as well as @Richard_close2u brilliant series on Modes.
So, I’ll often start with a blank piece of paper, taking notes, writing out the basics again; in this case , the major scale, the mode, the parent scale, diatonic triads, 7th chords, distinctive notes etc, and see what else I can glean from it, in addition to what I’m reading.
And boy, have I been reading a lot of cool stuff; with perhaps more knowledgeable eyes than say a year ago.
So, I’ve come across something very interesting, at least to me. I haven’t heard it mentioned anywhere, and am still at the point where I’m thinking, “ What else can I glean from this, and is there some potentially practical benefit here by looking at it this way?”. Wondering if @Richard_close2u can perhaps throw some light on this, critique it, pull it apart etc. It’s basically another path to answering the following 2 questions on the fly. This perspective is more about using knowledge about diatonic chords, chord construction, and intervals to get quick answers.
Q1. What are the notes in a particular mode ?
Q2. What is the relevant Parent Major Scale ?
A1. 7 Notes in any mode = I7 + II triad ( nomenclature up for improvement, but will suffice here)
( ie. The four 7th chord notes built off the tonic + the three triad notes built off the 2nd degree = 7 notes of the mode)
A2. Parent Key = 9 - Modes degree number. The resulting note on that degree is the tonic of the parent.
( ie 9 - the modes degree number when seen in series)
Example : D Mixolydian ( 5th degree mode)
D7 (II7) + Em (II triad) = DF#AC + EGB
= DEF#GABC ( D Mixolydian mode/scale
and,
9 - 5 = 4.
From above, 4th degree = G
Parent scale is G Major.
So, a couple of points/ caveats re ascertaining the chord tonalities, degrees etc
- Knowing the chord qualities built off the 7 degrees of the Major scale, including both triads and 7th chords; chords in a key basically. I suppose, if you’re looking at modes, it’s pretty much prerequisite knowledge.
- Knowing the type of 2nd degree in 1., in order to start building the triad. Eg. Is it a b2 or a 2.? It will always be one tone up from the tonic in every mode, except for Phrygian and Locrian, which both have b2 degrees. Given their more limited use, I think this is OK. Plus I’d put it under prerequisite knowledge anyway.
- Knowing the tonality/quality of the triad in 1. This can immediately be gleaned by simply looking at the tonality of root chord, then looking at the one above it. eg. For say Mixolydian, in the Major scale the 5 chord is Major, so the 6 ( in effect the 2nd in the mode, and the answer we’re after) must be minor.
- I’ve found that with some modes, with less sharps and flats etc, working the above out can be pretty quick anyway. However, for many other modes, I can quickly get into a bind, and need to nut it out on paper; thus taking me away from the guitar. This method may indeed be very helpful at those times.
I’d say if one has a pretty good working knowledge of chord construction, this can be a quickfire way to reveal the notes of any 7 note scale. Seems obvious now, but all those times I put myself in knots when working out major scale notes across any key; many are committed to memory now as ‘images’, but hey, it’s just the notes of the root Maj7 + 2nd minor triad.
Here’s a table of all the modes, and the chord qualities, pertinent to (1) above. I noticed the columns are offset by 1 to reflect the 1st and 2nd degrees. I love logical things.
Mode 7th Triad
Ionian Maj7 + min
Dorian min7 + min
Phrygian min7 + Maj
Lydian Maj7 + Maj
Mixo- Dom7 + min
Lydian
Aeolian min7 + dim
Locrian m7b5 + Maj
The whole process above might sound a bit dense, and given its a ‘new’ discovery for me, it perhaps could be put more succintly. Not 100% sure if it has full integrity yet either, but it appears so at this point.
In real terms however, the whole process is less than a minute, and often less the 30 seconds.
Cheers,
Shane
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Good to seeing you doing a modal deep dive. Richard’s feature is a great explanation and opportunity to explore. When your hand is better try doing some of the exploratory “exercises” a few of us did when the series came out. But make sure your give Locrian some love, it can be an interesting mode to mess around with.
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Bah! I hope it heals soon.
Yes. And this is totally logical. It will always work if just dealing with scale degrees and not being concerned with chord type or sharps or flats etc.
The tonic triad, and then its extension to a 7th, will always be:
1 - 3 - 5
1 - 3 - 5 - 7
That is the odd numbers taken care of.
The triad built off the second scale degree will always be:
2 - 4 - 6
That is the even numbers taken care of.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 - the complete set are contained within those two chords - the tonic 7th and the 2nd scale degree triad. It cannot be any other way.
Aha. You have discovered the 9 subtract something formula. Have you learned, discovered, noticed something along these lines when it comes to intervals? Specifically intervals when viewed as pairs or related intervals.
You will be familiar with the interval of 3rds. Of course you will. You’re discussing chord construction. I’m sure you have also encountered 6ths.
Did you know that 3rds and 6ths are inversions of one another?
Let’s take a G major chord. It is built by stacking 3rds.
G → B → D
G to B is a major 3rd. B to D is a minor 3rd. WHat about the intervals of B back to G an octave higher, or D back to B an octave higher?
Check the diagram - those ‘return’ intervals are both 6ths.
3rds and 6ths can be called inversion of one another.
G → B is a 3rd
B → G is a 6th.
That applies to all 3rds and all 6ths.
Their quality is also flipped, major / minor.
What about other intervals?
G → A is a 2nd.
A → G is a 7th.
G → C is a 4th.
C → G is a 5th.
Hang on … 3 and 6, 2 and 7, 4 and 5. All pairs add to 9! It’s magical.
@TheMadman_tobyjenner Toby loves Locrian. 
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This resurrection is way too much of a distraction with only 5 weeks of BLIM to go. But I must revisit soon, as I have learnt so many other things in between since this was first being published. Also need to track down the recordings I did at the time, seems a lifetime ago ! Thx as always, everyone needs to read this when the time is right. 
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Hello Richard,
Thanks for the input Richard. If my modal musings pass your integrity test, then I know I’m probably on some solid ground.
Ah yes the magic #9. I initially discovered this principle when delving into dyads and double stops in a blues setting. I started wondering why those 6ths ‘fit’ so well, then stumbled on the fact its an inversion of the all important 3rd. Then thought, well, if this inversion principle works here, then this ‘complementary’ intervallic relationship is probably general. Aha! The theory just keeps on giving…and after just a few short years, I feel I’ve only just scratched the surface of the surface here…
Cheers, Shane
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Wow thats seems a bit complex to just work out the notes of a particular mode and its parent scale but if it works for you
Using your example of wanting to play D mixolydian as the 5th mode of the major scale I’d know D was the 5th note of the parent scale, from that using WWH… from the 5 (D) id think W = 6E, W= 7F#, H = 1/8 G major. Then just reorder G major scale starting on the 5th note to give the notes of D mixolydian.
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Hello Greg,
As noted, it may appear somewhat convoluted at first glance as written, but the process is very simple and very quick, given a knowledge of the Major scale/ chord construction. Just 3 steps really. Plenty of other ways though for sure. Use 'em all.
I can see your point about D Mixolydian, but if you really look at it, your method is actually as ‘complex’, as this one; and with at least the same, if not more steps, but less information revealed. I know, I’ve used it. And D Mixolydian is a pretty familiar one anyway, which is why I used it as an example. Plus its assuming your quick recall of the common parent Major scale G. This is not always the case. In fact, my method gives you the scale, whatever it is.
I suppose one real advantage I see with this method is with modes / keys that are perhaps less familiar, or not committed as well to one’s memory; and contain more sharps/ flats etc.
Can one compute say, Bb Aeolian, as quickly as D Mixolydian? Very unlikely for most. This method somewhat circumvents these complexities.
Its really just a matter of finding the notes in 2 chords, then doing a basic subtraction for the parent scale.
So, for say, a trickier one like Bb Aeolian:
Bbm7 - Bb Db F Ab - Bang, a few seconds, there’s 4 notes of the mode.
Up a tone for the triad, C dim, CEbGb. Bang a few seconds. There’s your other 3 notes.
Bb C Db Eb F Gb Ab
9-6=3. Bang, Db Major is the parent.
1-2-3. All in probably 30 seconds or less.
To be honest, I think most, including myself, would be confronted with something like Bb Aeolian, and be staring in the space blankly fir a moment or 2, trying to work out the parent key; maybe something like “I know B is the 6th of D, so Bb must be the 6th of Db”. Ok, cool: pretty quick. Then be confronted with Db, and staring blankly again, trying to work out the notes in Db Major, using whatever method. This method circumvents all that.
I realise this key/ mode of Bb Aeolian would be uncommon, but it shows the simplicity of the method for any key/ mode; and there are many modes that can have ‘tricky’ parents.
So, if one has reasonably solid chord construction/Major scale competency, this method appears to be a very quick and accurate one across all modes and keys; I think a good one tovat least add to the toolbox. Moreso, if you need to do it on the fly, with guitar in hand.
Plus its just cool theory I reckon
Cheers, Shane
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30 secs!
Why would you use that technique?
It’s trivial to find the parent major scale (PMS) of Bb Aeolian. You know that Aeolian is the sixth mode. You know the intervals are 6-71. You have a guitar in front of you. You know the notes on the 5th and 6th strings. So you find a Bb on your fretboard. Then you go
.
.
and determine that Db is the PMS
You can use this technique for any note.
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Finding the PMS of D Mixolydian is even simpler. Mixolydian is the 5th mode.
So it’s G
If you don’t know this 5-1 relationship then just run up or down the string from the mode number, using the major scale intervals, until you get to 1.
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I dont think Bb is any harder at all, find parent scale, write out with WWH and reorder from 6th of parent scale. As Matt points out below though use the guitar, I’d go further and to find the notes of Bb Aeolian I’d just play what I call Aeolion Major scale home pattern, controversial I know but I call that Major scale pattern 6 You’d have. Any scale in a few seconds not 30
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On the topic of deriving the full scale and the parent major scale from the start point of knowing any modal root note, remember the connection with the Circle of Fifths. I initially wrote this topic as an off-shoot of my Circle of Fifths topic, and the CoF has featured heavily throughout.
These diagrams from above were all C-root note centric. But the fundamental principle behind them applies to any key, any mode with any root note.
C Lydian
… C Ionian
C Mixolydian
… C Dorian
C Aeolian
… C Phrygian
C Locrian
The key aspect to use is always a seven-note cluster of consecutive notes around the outer rim of the Circle of Fifths, and take the positions from a clockwise perspective.
- Lydian - root note in position 1
- Ionian - root note in position 2
- Mixolydian - root note in position 3
- Dorian - root note in position 4
- Aeolian - root note in position 5
- Phrygian - root note in position 6
- Locrian - root note in position 7
Let’s test that out using a two-tier Circle of Fifths.
1] Eb Dorian?
The note Eb needs to be in position 4 on the outer rim. We will find 3 notes either side, those being Gb, Db and Ab on one side then Bb, F and C on the other.
Because Ionian is always in position 2, we can see that Db is the parent major scale. We can also use the Circle of Fifths to know the chords will be Ebm, Fm, Gb, Ab, Bbm, Cdim, Db. With regard to Cdim, remember that the diminished chord is always the ‘odd-one-out’, the one whose root is not within the 6-chord cluster.
1] B Mixolydian?
The note B needs to be in position 3 on the outer rim. We will find 2 anticlockwise and four note closkwise from it. Those are A, E then F#, C#, G# and D# respectively.
Because Ionian is always in position 2, we can see that E is the parent major scale. We can also use the Circle of Fifths to know the chords will be Ebm, Fm, Gb, Ab, Bbm, Cdim, Db. With regard to Cdim, remember that the diminished chord is always the ‘odd-one-out’, the one whose root is not within the 6-chord cluster.
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I’m team Greg
It takes me about 5 secs to build one of the caged shapes in any mode in any key.
Bb Aeolian
That would likely take me 10 minutes, the backing track would be long finished and now I’m not only playing in the wrong mode but the wrong key over a different youtube backing track . I know your a theory guru @Richard_close2u and it really is impressive to read but I’m way behind you in all aspects guitar so I try to learn the basics and quickly find a way to apply it effectively on the fretboard, whilst theory is important playing is more so. I have some methods that most frown on like 7 caged major scale patterns, its just the way I think of it, theres duplicates so only 5 really but the 7 allows to play any mode in any key instantly so I’m really not fussed when people say I’m wrong, it works for me. How about 5 unique 135 patterns within each major scale patterns to play a 1 4 5 progression in any key. I think we can all think differently and just because thinking differently from convention doesnt suit the purists view doesn’t make it wrong, as long as its right
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Now I’m intrigued @Matt125
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I agree - it isn’t direct and I wouldn’t follow these steps.
I wanted, initially, to follow Shane’s path of Modal root → scale notes → parent major scale → modal chords.
This is an easier 1-step of the post above. Now using a diagram from within my Circle of Fifths topic.
This one diagram - an imaginary overlay that you can learn to visualise in next to no time with a little practice - is a better method imo.
- I = tonic chord of the major key and = where you find Ionian’s root
- ii = ii chord of the major key and = where you find Dorian’s root
- iii = iii chord of the major key and = where you find Phrygian’s root
- IV = IV chord of the major key and = where you find Lydian’s root
- V = V chord of the major key and = where you find Mixolydian’s root
- vi = vi chord of the major key and = where you find Aeolian’s root
- Locrian is elsewhere. Only of concern if your name is Toby or Bjork!
Imagine that placed anywhere you need it over a Circle of Fifths. Let’s say F Aeolian.
You need the vi to sit on top of Fm (because Aeolian is built from the 6th scale degree of the parent major scale and is a minor type mode). The I is Ab so that is the parent major scale.
Working alphabetically from F we have:
F Aeolian scale = F, G, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb
F Aeolian diatonic chords = Fm, Gdim, Ab, Bbm, Cm, Db, Eb
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Matt,
I think you’re somewhat missing the point here, although Aeolian probably wasn’t the best ‘tricky’ example. Regardless, your example is incomplete.
The post is not about moving your fingers in a pattern on the guitar. Can you use your method for any mode while in the middle of a jam or an improv, say between 2 choruses? Or when away from the guitar? Or just generally in your head.
My post was about a recent
discovery that i thought;
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Provided some interesting and useful insights and connections re modes, and, may stimulate other ideas, and
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Provided a quick method for finding modes in any situations.
Its not a method I exclusively utilise, nor am I promoting it as some great new thing. There are many ways, another of which you’ve outlined. Mine is more of a chord-centric approach. This is just a tool or method that may be useful in some peoples toolbox.
Cheers, Shane
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