Thanks Brian
That’s an area where I do struggle, I guess because I ‘think’ it’s baked into my personality I never get around to working at it 
you may be onto something there.
Thanks guys 
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A friend’s good advice for playing out: play the same song so it becomes your signature. I also think if it’s a set, organize it like a story. I used to start with something uptempo, like Stuck in the Middle, because thematically it puts me in the mood.
“Dave, you’re crap” isn’t useful feedback. I’d remove it from my vocabulary if you want to analyse your strengths and weaknesses. Of course nobody who cares is going to say that to you. My guess is that people saying that was good or bad isn’t going to resolve the nerves you’re feeling. The real thing is whether you’re being honest as a performer.
Most live mic venues bury the vocal mic, I don’t know why. Rock setups are worse. Work on dynamics with the guitar, play softly, make it whisper if it’s appropriate to the song. If there’s a sound guy ask him/her to change the volume or tone. Also, is that the world’s biggest music stand or something else? Always take a few minutes to move things on stage where You want them. Don’t block yourself from the audience in any way if you can help it.
Do you follow any voice teachers on YouTube? Try a few. Lots of people like Chris Liepe if you want to sound like other people. I’m more into a good warmup and sounding like myself. Which is not easy in the least. I take lessons with a guy I found on YouTube, Sam Johnson. Practice without headphones and take all the effects off your voice. At least pull one side off your ear so you can hear how you really sound. I know it’s horrifying at first, but if you stick to it, you’ll be glad you did.
Practice guitar alone. Sing to your guitar track without effects on your voice. Then put it together.
Jam with anyone who asks. If they’re better, if they’re worse. Ask people to jam with you first. If you can’t learn from them, teach them what you know that they don’t.
Want an honest, unvarnished opinion? You have the very basics down well. But it’s just the beginning. And it is not about how good or bad you are, that’s meaningless. Or how advanced your playing is. It’s about how much you can move or engage somebody by being yourself. Which you can’t directly control. Ask yourself questions about this. Who are you as a musician?. What do you want to say? What do you like, what don’t you? Don’t play with a goal outside of practicing what you can’t do. Just play to sooth your own soul. Hey, a rhyme!
My experience is as a singer/songwriter. I can tell you that you can’t write the song you want, or a song that sounds like Radiohead because you want. But your song will be what it wants to be or it won’t be at all. Maybe this goes for performing as well. You can’t choose your own image, you own strengths and weaknesses. You can just, layer by layer, the more you do it, lay bear who you are. And that’s what people want to see, and hear, and be close to.
I’m sorry I didn’t tell you how good or bad you are. Like I said, that will never soothe your soul. Besides, I suspect you know your playing better than anyone else. What do you think?
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@Patthebunny
Wow, I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed. I think I have cracked a seam with this thread.
100%
Yeah, I’m signed up with Chris Liepe, the truth is I’m lazy with my practice. I know what I need to do.
The reverb is a bit of a crutch, and it’s fair to say I received some positive feedback on a night there was no reverb on the setup. So yeah, what I think is good and what others engage with…
And I know it works with the guitar practice for getting the mechanics accurate.
Thanks for that Pat
You’ve told me exactly what I needed to hear. Thanks Pat
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Dave this is a really interesting post that sort of developed into more philosophical discussion from original AVOYP post, good stuff! My 2cs now 
You are great in my opinion, all OMs you attended over here I loved every single performance of yours and how great song choices you have made and arrangements you played made me smile and happy. In my scale you are really good… but of course it doesn’t mean in someone else’s or even yourselves you will be too.
With the guitar songs you are performing you have pretty much well under your fingers. Solos impros etc are a great feature, but those are only a feature for sing along performances, don’t beat yourself up if those are missing now, one day they will come.
My opinion is that the more songs you learn and less time you spend on them there will always be a limit to what you can learn. I can figure out a simple strumming song or picking song in 2 weeks probably, but 2 weeks gap is not enough to learn a song more complicated, not to mention to sing along to it. Most of songs I have recorded takes weeks if not months and they are still not always performance ready.
Now I think this is your nail into the coffin here. Do you actually need to perform at each OM? And more over do you have to perform a new song each time? Perform every other night, give yourself some more time, skip one or two if learning something more complicated - don’t put a pressure on yourself. You will still be performing and perhaps some extra air is what you need?
Singing is a tricky one for me to explain, I don’t train much singing except car sessions or when I get home alone (almost never) but it comes out naturally okay I guess or as some here (and out in the real world) say really good (liars 
). I think my singing improved few months after joining here, I had capabilities and people talked about Chris Liepe here and those free videos on YouTube actually were enough for me in many cases as I know naturally how to do a lot of stuff and he only sort of laid missing foundations for me. Now it’s a lot easier and my advice for you here is - learn to go full volume and really how to squeeze your diaphragm. This is key to your vox dynamics and to make it stronger, more powerful and engaging you need that.
Trouble with new tech is you can adjust pretty much everything which differs much from real world. I can make whispering an interesting singing, but when you whisper in a pub live - good luck with that. I am also not saying scream your lungs out, you need to find a right balance here I’m afraid on your own. I think your performances would benefit from some more power like in Nothing else matters during Community OM, it was great, although you need a bit more control over when you get louder. Car is your friend here, embrace it!
Hope it was helpful a bit at least? Also ask yourself where do you want to get, is current level enough or you want to perform during events and get some paid gigs? Honest opinion - you are great for the first one, and you are not far off with the second one to be fair just work on some vox dynamics. Don’t be afraid of the volume! And don’t think about 40+ songs yet, focus on lot less and just don’t perform each week 
all the best Dave
I couldn’t have asked for better feedback, hope others can get as much out of it as I am.
Yeah, with my current process, I’m fairly settled on what’s in and what’s out within a couple days. So may seem like limiting the skill set in the long run but still working on those in the background so the paths will converge one day 
Plus, latest project has a bit more going on ….
Totally self inflicted this one. I have been trying to perform each week as some of the nights can get a bit quiet so like to do my bit to support the event and venue. Most other folk perform the same songs over and over, I just find this a bit boring for myself.
That’s one of my gifts/curses, I will just get hyper focused and off down that path I go! 6 months down the road and I have a crisis of conscience and start to worry I’m hurtling along in the wrong direction 
. That’s just my way 
I’ll maybe try and throw in some theme sets going forward, for songs I already know, have an Oasis night or whatever.
I’m starting to realise this…
Ah, this is a revelation. I see that this is exactly what I’ve been doing. Cheers Adi
Absolutely, thanks Adi. 
Hey Dave, thank you for this thread! It is super interesting and helpful. I am a big fan of what you’re doing. I’m yet to summon the courage to play in front of others, let alone at a pub in front of strangers and other musicians. What you’re doing is a guiding light for those of us that still see this as a distant dream.
I can’t comment on much that would be of any value, especially given the outstanding contributions above (I particularly enjoyed reading @jkahn, @Patthebunny & @adi_mrok) but am interested in your following perspective…
I am totally with you on that! I understand the idea of getting a few songs nailed as opposed to heaps of songs just okay but, from a listeners perspective, that small amount of improvement is likely overlooked by the fact that they heard the same song last week (or last time you played) and it definitely can be a bit boring or tedious. Especially if that song is very well known or played a lot on, say, commercial radio. The two songs above are a perfect example. I loved the U2 cover! However House of the Rising Sun was a tad boring to me (sorry! 
). You played it great! I’d love to play it that well! But I’ve just heard it a million times and would rather hear something less well known, even if not as polished.
I kind of think of it like if you were playing originals or more obscure covers, then, yes please, repeat every week! As they’d still feel fresh and new and probably the only time I’d hear them. However songs which have been over played for years are a bit tiresome and cliche, so would be far less engaging, at least to me.
However I realise this isn’t a popular view, those at the pub have probably come to hear some well known favorites that they can tap their toe to and sing along, so maybe this isn’t good advice but more a personal perspective?
I guess what I’m trying to say is don’t relegate yourself to playing crowd pleasers? Build an identity with interesting songs that are perhaps surprising rather than anticipated or expected?
In saying all that, please do keep on doing what you’re doing! It’s inspiring and motivating! You’re certainly not an imposter, you’re living it my friend! Well done!
I’d add to that the ‘red light syndrome’ factor. Playing dynamically or adding in those subtle bits and bobs can be fairly straightforward at home, but when you are performing your hands suddenly want to clamp onto the guitar neck and your brain fogs over.
It’s exactly the same thing all the way through the journey:
- you are practicing and get a song down, decide to record it and somehow you mess it up all the way through.
- you have 6 weeks to learn a song for an online open mic. Can play it great 99% of the time. You had better believe that last 1% is going to be how your performance actually goes on the night. But having said that, a few bum chords or skipping a verse probably do go unnoticed.
- you have a song ‘nailed’ play it regularly at home, can add in loops and solos, roll off the attack on demand, harmonics ring out loud and true… get out there and wham, you are right back to the basic chord progression with all the finesse packed up and gone home.
So yeah the old KISS adage, keep it simple stupid, probably has some mileage here too.
I guess that’s how the greats are great, they can take it with them on the road.
For anyone else reading though, it does get easier, you just have to keep doing it, whatever stage you’re at.
Ha, no need for the apologetic emojis, I’m totally with you
Again, just part of the journey I guess. Of course it’s easier to learn the popular songs first because they are familiar. I always feel like they are a bit cliche when performing them but…
Yeah, these are the songs that folk sing along to. Maybe that’s part of the performance ‘craft’, keep it interesting but finish on a ‘classic’ so folk can get involved.
They are maybe better for the end of night jam too (which doesn’t always happen though). Everyone rolls their eyes when waggon wheel is suggested for a jam, but once it gets going, everyone loves it.
Yeah, I’m aiming that way hopefully. I like disappearing down a rabbit hole every now and then, seeing where I pop out.
Thanks Jeff, will do
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Hey Dave, the “imposter syndrome” line really resonated with me,it’s something that I struggle with constantly.
What can I add that hasn’t been said already? So many great insights.
My advice would be not to worry to be “good” or “bad”, record yourself and really listen to it, and adjust your practice to achieve a performance that YOU like. I know it’s easier said than done, but that way of thinking has helped me a bit.
Cheers!
What an interesting read!
I found myself reflecting on my own experiences so far, and here is what I came up with……
I watched both of your videos, including hotel California twice (because that’s the one that I was familiar with). You are on the right track. You seem comfortable and able to navigate the crowd noise. Your rhythm is solid all of the way through the song, and in an atmosphere like you are playing in, or appear to be playing in, that’s half the battle. Your vocals are solid, and to be honest, this is a tough vocal to relocate like the original. All of the vocalists from the Eagles had pretty unique voices.
Being confident is important, so I would say “Reality check” can go to bed in my opinion. I feel like I’m pretty aware of my flaws, and a few of mine have led me to question my own playing.
Is my strumming dynamic enough? Typically, I don’t think it is, and that can lead to some of my songs sounding similar.
I have rushed quite a few songs at live venues, and my impression is that my guitar playing and vocals don’t jive together as well. I’m not sure that I have played a new song and felt super awesome about it. However, generally when I incorporate a new song, and I keep it in the set list, each time I perform it things seem more cohesive.
My solo work has been rough, and until recently I just glossed over it in learning songs. I want to get better with that, but I have been focused on building repertoire and identifying what doesn’t work.
I tried standing up for a set a few gigs ago and it didn’t go so well. I still get lost in the middle strings when standing.
When I first started playing live, I would get a little more frustrated than I do now about little things. For instance, I’d play a song that I have had in the bag for a while, and I would get little applause after. Then I’d play a song that sounded like garbage to me, but the crowd went wild. I have come to settle on the idea that different people have different perceptions, and emotions attached to different songs in different ways, and that’s a good thing. Imagine if we all liked the same songs the same way?!
I don’t know if any of this was helpful. Keep doing what you are doing, be proud of yourself for asking the tough questions, and when you do get true, honest feedback, take it to heart and make it part of your plan of improvement.
Keep strumming
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I think your performance is great Dave, and to mix two previous comments together, I wonder whether you’re trying a bit too much to be a “wow guitarist” (to plagiarise @jkahn), and failing to allow for the fact that “public are generally easy to please” (thanks @Rossco01!)?
I think you can see this a bit in your recording of Hotel California, compare the crowd noise at 0:15 and 4:15. You’re playing effectively the same thing, yet at the start it sounds like almost the whole pub is talking over you, while at the end, the pub is a lot quieter.
The difference is that you’ve smacked the audience in the ears with some nice, punchy strumming and made them realise that you’re playing a fairly well-known song, and that you’re delivering it really well.
If the venue is always a bit noisy at the start, then I’d consider arranging your songs in a way that helps you to grab attention early on (get the crowd quiet) and then you can start to add in some frills.
This is a long way to answer your question:
Dave
Lots of carp going on at the moment, so taken me a while to review your post.
Out here in the Normandie sticks, in the land of the Accordion I’ll most likely not get to play in front of live breathing people, so our Open Mics here are the next best thing. I know its another step going into the big wild world in the way that you’re doing and Jason @Rossco01 has done. But just be yourself.
Your OM performances have been really good quality and your demeanour unassuming. If that is what you are doing on the local circuit all well and good. I always ask folk here to be honest about there ability with respect to learning and guess I’d offer the same advice to those stepping into the spotlight. Don’t pretend to be something you’re not, be honest in who you are and what you can do and make sure the audience knows that’s where you are at and just play with integrity. Then relax and do what you do. Enjoy the experience and maybe learn a thing or two.
Don’t think about what others think of you. Just be yourself. Those that mind don’t matter and those that matter don’t mind.
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That’s great Travis, it’s all good learning.
Yeah you can definitely feed off of a confident performance as a spectator. Someone told me to think of yourself as a 5 year old in a Spider-Man costume when stepping up.
This is something I don’t tend to worry about. I’ve noticed most folk have their own ‘style’. The more you can automate your strumming the more you can focus on other things.
I think this is just practice. Justin has a video but I found this useful
From:
I tend to stand for the rock songs as it’s just a bit wrong to sit down for those. It’s definitely not the same as sitting but it doesn’t take long. I keep the guitar higher up, maybe not chilly peppers cool but a lot more practical
That’s it right there, it’s so hard to gauge how you are doing and what is working sometimes.
Cheers bud, I guess all we can do is just keep on moving forward.
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Aye, there is maybe a bit of that. But mainly I just didn’t like to think I was maybe making a ‘fool’ of myself. When I first took the plunge I was full of confidence and had the ‘apprentice’ mentality. No problem, I’m just new here so not afraid of messing up. A bit further down the road and I’m now in the I’ve been doing this a while now so should be ‘competent’. Which, on reflection, is something I drill home to my actual apprentices at work - you should never be afraid to ask questions. I see experienced engineers struggling on because they feel they should know xyz and are afraid to look daft and ask. I’m rambling but there are some parallels here.
Definitely some set craft to work on , cheers Iain
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Just remembered this video. Everyone’s dream.
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Well I guess that if you can capture just one person’s imagination for even a moment you’re winning 
@liaty wow there’s been a ton of activity on this thread already. Let me just say I’m super impressed at you getting up and putting yourself out there in front of a bunch of strangers. Bravo Bravo. Nothing about your voice or your playing or your delivery made me think “hey this guy doesn’t belong here what is he doing?”
FWIW your cover of Running to Stand Still made me pick up my own guitar and play right along with you. Really great jam that one.
My suggestion is to vary up your strummng pattern (start a bit more sparse and grow into the steady rhythm you have) and chord selection a bit to let the song build to more of a crescendo. Use pauses and silence. Get a bit (just a bit 
) dramatic (I mean you’re playing a freaking U2 song ). I think just adding the G, A, D barre chords in there as a different option is one step that will add some different flavor. Then this might be a great song to practice some triads on strings 1,2,3, maybe on the later verses or towards the end.
Cheers Jesse.
Thanks, I will do. Sometimes the finesse vanishes when the nerves show up
I’m working on it!
Still on the todo list, I’m working on the first minor pentatonic shapes at the moment, I’ve seen references to triads here and there but haven’t got to any lesson modules yet.
Keep pushing that circle outward…
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you sound great! I dont think I would ever have the courage to do open mic nights haha