Really struggling on transcribing

[direvus]

On HOTRS, I already knew the key and the chords. Justin gave the first four notes. The first week I tried to work on the next four notes (“in New Orleans”), I was correct on “Orleans” but fumbled around a bit with “in New”. Interestingly I had the relative movement right between those two (down 2 semitones) but couldn’t figure out where to place them. I ended up settling on D - C - A - A, but the answer was apparently E - D - A - A.

Yesterday I got to work on the next six notes (“they call the Rising Sun”). I thought I had a solution, and I got a couple of the note names right (A on “call” and E on “Sun”), but an octave too low. I didn’t notice that the singer had shifted way up on that phrase and I just kept working in the same range as the first phrase. I asked my wife for a second opinion, she said my selection sounded too low overall, and she was right.

As for how long I’ve been playing, been taking guitar seriously since March 2022 with a few ditched attempts in the years before, plus a brief stint on piano (grade 3) when I was a teenager.

[jkahn]

Hey Brendan,

Transcribing is super, super hard. My personal view is that Justin is so good at it he doesn’t realise how hard it is. Some of the transcribing lessons in grade 3 are out of difficulty order, IMHO. Actually I think some of the transcribing lessons are so hard they don’t even belong in grade 3 at all, they require a much more developed ear than is reasonable at that stage.

Grade 15, power chords, is an OK starting point.

The Grade 16 ones that you’re doing, IMHO, are the absolute hardest. I had no idea what I was doing, started with Let It Be, and ended up transcribing absolutely the wrong thing, I think I was transcribing the piano. I gave up on grade 16. What you’re meant to do their is transcribe the vocal melody to guitar which for me is super hard so I gave up on this. I think it requires a well developed ear to match a sung note to a guitar note. Maybe some time this year I’ll go back and try again.

The riffs are MUCH, much easier.

Grade 17, easy riffs, is a lot easier than 16, and even easier than 15. It’s one note at a time riffs. It’s the easiest.

Grade 18, open chords, a bit harder than power chords. Hard to tell the difference in the mix of the recorded songs at times, but still WAY easier than grade 16.

Grade 20 riffs would be second easiest. I haven’t done grade 19 or 21 transcribing yet.

One tip I would give that took me a while to figure out is working out pitch vs tone. I would have a hard time figuring out a palm muted or a bass riff when I was picking the strings open. Add some palm muting and then it sounded closer to the original. I think this is also why the grade 16 melodies are so hard, it’s a different tone (voice) even if the same pitch (notes).

On figuring out if you’re right. I just use ultimate guitar. I have a pro subscription which gives their official tabs for most songs (which are often right, not always).

It does get easier. Since starting to transcribe I’ve figured out some other songs I’ve been listening to, just power chords or riffs though. That grade 16 melody transcription though… ugh, still feels like a nightmare when I think about it.

[stitch]

@jkahn

Grade 17, easy riffs, is a lot easier than 16, and even easier than 15. It’s one note at a time riffs. It’s the easiest.

@direvus Maybe try this. JK seems to be on to something here.
Some people have no trouble with melodies and some find riffs easier. Maybe skip thus lesson for now and come back to it latter.

Try not to be to hard on yourself transcribing is hard and you haven’t been play very long.

[direvus]

@jkahn

It does get easier. Since starting to transcribe I’ve figured out some other songs I’ve been listening to, just power chords or riffs though. That grade 16 melody transcription though… ugh, still feels like a nightmare when I think about it.

Thanks JK, this is very encouraging to read. I will not stress too much about progress on transcribing in the current module and look forward to getting my teeth into it on module 17.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, about Justin being a natural at this. He’s been so good at empathising with what it’s like to struggle on the physical guitar skills. So with transcribing, this enormous gulf between what he seems to be expecting, and what I can actually do, has caught me off guard.

I think he said something about “I still remember working this song out from the record when I was 13” in one of the videos, so … yeah

[direvus]

@stitch

Try not to be to hard on yourself transcribing is hard and you haven’t been play very long.

Thanks Rick, I’m sure that you are right, and Justin certainly said that it was hard in the first lesson. I guess I was prepared for a different kind of ‘hard’ than what I got.

[Jozsef]

Hello, fellow transcriber

Your post reminded me of my attempt at transcribing a Chet Baker trumpet solo: (COVER) Chet Baker-Russ Freeman: Summer Sketch

Sure, it’s difficult at the beginning, that one took me about a total of 15-16 hours. Not in one go, though. The fact that the beginning and the ending serve as a bookend helped a lot.

I’d say if you’re starting to get frustrated, just leave it for a couple of days and come back to it later. Maybe that period of “ear cleansing” will be beneficial, and you can continue with fresh ears.

A few things/notions I found helpful (though their usefulness depends on the particular piece):

• The bassline can help you, they often sort of “prefigure” chord progressions or bits of melody.
• If a note seems to sound good together with a chord but it doesn’t feel 100% right, try to identify which chord it may be (root - 3rd - 5th) and play around with those options.
• At times, I found the notes almost right away, then I realized I was an octave lower (still sounded good to me). That was an easy fix.
• Try not to forget about the major scale and the minor pentatonic scale patterns/intervals. They can be useful hints. Most of these melodies are in a certain key.
• Also, at times I thought I figured out things all right, but there was still some doubt in the back of my mind. It turned out that the “real” note was 1 semitone lower/higher than what I found.
• On the guitar, try not to expect very big jumps between strings or positions or extreme finger stretches. Try to think of “economical” solutions.

Over last year, I gradually got the hang of transcribing, although I started to dabble into it before Justin published his related lessons, so my learning path and song choices are somewhat different than his suggestions. As far as vocal lines go, I managed to crack Eleanor Rigby. Other than that, I tend to focus on horn/guitar lines.

So don’t get frustrated, eventually you’ll get better at it. For the time being, I’d suggest you to try some simpler (not much more than 4-5 notes), more repetitive riffs, e.g. Sunshine of Your Love, Black Night, “it” (it’s the last song on The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, it was one of the first riffs I managed to transcribe on my own), or something else that you like.

[nhh2oskr]

As others have already said, transcribing is difficult. I suck at it, BUT I’m so much better at now at 70 yrs with some tools than I was at 15 yrs with record player and a 33 LP or 45. The frustration I had with transcribing when I was a teen was a factor in me quitting by the time I was 20. I saw others who were able to do it and I couldn’t. I do think that there is a talent factor in this, but it also seems to be be a skill that can be developed.
I now have more time, patience and skills acquired from JG. I listen to songs in more detail: the structure of the song, the rhythms, the chords, etc. I don’t sing very well so I spend some of my time learning instrumentals. I’ve done better transcribing some of these than ones with vocals.
I’m still not very good at it and I still get frustrated, but the time spent working at it has had a positive impact on my ability to learn and play songs, regardless of how I learn them.

[Tbushell]

The best advice I got was from a keyboard teacher who suggested singing small fragments of the melodies (vocals or riffs), and then finding the notes on the instrument - one note at a time.

You don’t need to sing well, but you do need to be able to match pitches between your voice and the instrument.

If you can’t do that, there are singing apps that give you feedback on how accurate your intonation is. Or you can sing into a chromatic tuner app.

I find singing along while practicing major and pentatonic scales helps as well.

Some notes are obvious, others less so. Often, the next day, listening with fresh ears, these notes will be more obvious.

For me, it’s quite mentally taxing - 15 or 20 minutes in a session is about all I can do.

[direvus]

@Tbushell

singing small fragments of the melodies (vocals or riffs), and then finding the notes on the instrument - one note at a time.

That’s exactly how I have been trying to do it.

Funnily enough, using my own voice is what caused me to go an octave too low on that phrase. Because the pitch he was actually singing is not in my range, I didn’t even try/consider going there.

@Tbushell

you do need to be able to match pitches between your voice and the instrument.

Yeah I can’t do that. I need the tuner in front of me or else I’m completely lost. Can’t even tell whether I’m on or off the pitch.

[Matt125]

Tbushell gave some great advice. If you can’t hum the note then it’s going to be difficult. Humming semitones is difficult. That’s probably why most folk songs from all over the world often the use the pentatonic scale.

Watch this clip. He steers them into the major pentatonic. He hums the root note. Then up to the 2 then the 3. So its a major scale. Now he jumps down to the the 6, NOT the 7. As he jumps up the scale note the audience jumps from the 3rd to the 5th. Totally skipping the 4th. (Perhaps singing 1 down a semitone to the 7 doesn’t come naturally.) Somehow the audience innately wants to hum a pentatonic melody…

Power of Pentatonic Scale - Demonstration by Bobby McFerrin

Try figuring out some simple melodies directly on your guitar. No need to write the notes down.
That makes things easier. Use melodies that you know very well. Nursery rhymes, children’s songs, whatever.
Try these,y ou probably know them well.
When the saints go marching in
Frere Jacques (start on the 5th string)
Do Re Mi (from "The sound of music. It is a full octave of the major scale.
Happy Birthday (it’s not that easy)

Like most normal people you probably keep your guitar next to you when your watching TV. So when you hear a simple melodic advertising jingle, try and replicate it on your guitar.

[direvus]

@Matt125

Use melodies that you know very well. Nursery rhymes, children’s songs, whatever.

Hi Matt, yes I have done the nursery rhyme exercise in the past, and that I actually can do. I’m kind of slow at it, but I do make progress. I think it took me about 30 minutes to get Twinkle the first time. Happy Birthday I’ve had a couple of attempts, worked out most of it, but have not cracked the final line yet.

I should probably spend my hour next week just doing that kind of thing instead of the module.

[Tbushell]

@direvus

Yeah I can’t do that. I need the tuner in front of me or else I’m completely lost. Can’t even tell whether I’m on or off the pitch.

That might be the fundamental skill you need to develop first.

I think Matt’s suggestion wrt pentatonic scales is a good one. Have you learned the movable pattern yet?

You could find a scale that starts in the comfortable part of your singing range. For the average man, I’d think that would be Am (6th string, 5th fret) or Cm (8th fret).

Then you could play part of the scale - one or two notes at a time - into your chromatic tuner.

Try to hear those notes in your head (Justin’s “musical imagination”).

Next, sing the same one or two notes into the tuner, and see how they match up.

I would do it the same way Justin suggests learnings scales on the guitar - slowly, perfectly, one string at a time.

Stay solidly in your comfortable chest voice - don’t strain for high or low notes.

I would expect 5 or 10 minutes of this a day would show noticeable improvement within a week.

I’ve found similar exercises have really helped me…though I found it easier to do with the major scale at first…probably because I got that “Doe, a deer” song permanently etched into my brain as a child.

[stitch]

@direvus

I should probably spend my hour next week just doing that kind of thing instead of the module

I think you’ve nailed the problem. You’re moving ahead before your ready. In turn your getting frustrated. Transcribing takes a long time and the longer you stay learning the easier things the easier the harder things will get.

[mc]

I’ll admit I gave up on transcribing quite quickly.

I can tell when a note is wrong or a guitar is out of tune, I can generally identify a note on the fretboard within about 2-4 guesses, but ask me to identify a run of notes, and you might as well ask me what next weeks lottery numbers are going to be

In short, don’t get too hung up on whether you can transcribe something.
I do still occasionally attempt to transcribe something, but only if I have a computer with Transcribe! installed on it, to guide me in the right direction.

[jkahn]

@Tbushell

That might be the fundamental skill you need to develop first.

I think singing to transcribe is not important at this stage. If it works for you, great. Justin doesn’t say it’s a pre-req in grade 3 transcribing though.

For some people, singing on pitch reliably is harder than much transcribing. I think it also doesn’t relate to transcribing chords, just single note runs.

No doubt the ability to do that helps a lot though.

[direvus]

@Tbushell

Then you could play part of the scale - one or two notes at a time - into your chromatic tuner.

Try to hear those notes in your head (Justin’s “musical imagination”).

Next, sing the same one or two notes into the tuner, and see how they match up.

I have been trying this on occasion, it’s not part of my regular practice but I do bust out the microphone and tuner and give this a try from time to time.

What I’ve found is that my voice is usually off by a lot, sometimes a semitone or more on the first stab. Without the tuner, I can’t tell whether I’m on or off, and certainly not whether I’m sharp or flat. With the tuner, I can get to the note, then I usually repeat it a few times to try to encode that linkage, and then move on to another note. So far it hasn’t seemed to ‘stick’ though. If I move on to another note and then come back to the first note, I’m still off.

Comfortable chest range for me is like E2 - G3. I can dig down as far as a C1 but that’s really growls and grunts rather than useful notes. So that pretty much limits me to one octave of an E, F, F# or G scale.

@Tbushell

I would expect 5 or 10 minutes of this a day would show noticeable improvement within a week.

Noticeable improvement is my favourite kind of improvement! I’ll give it a go for a week and see how it turns out.

[nzmetal]

Not sure if this is cheating or not but I have currently been learning to transcribe a song using Guitar Pro 8 as shown by Justin in this lesson. I added the song as an audio file and been methodically figuring it out, as he demonstrates. Was waaayyyyy easier! You can input the note/chord you think it is, then loop that section with the track and listen to see if it sounds right. Feels a bit like cheating however I have learned a lot by using it so maybe that will also help me when not having the software on hand? I’ll admit I’ve not solely relied on this as it was at times easier to just use my guitar to figure out some sections but I recommend giving it a whirl if interested. They have a free trial but don’t forget Justin’s code if you buy! :

Guitar Pro Experiments

[Tbushell]

@direvus

What I’ve found is that my voice is usually off by a lot, sometimes a semitone or more on the first stab. Without the tuner, I can’t tell whether I’m on or off, and certainly not whether I’m sharp or flat

A semitone isn’t much. I’m often off by more than that at first.

And I wouldn’t worry too much about being sharp or flat at this point. It’s more about improving your ear rather than learning to sing (though it will help with that too).

Are you trying to hear the note in your head before you sing it? That helped me a lot.

Also, can you play a note, and then match it with your voice…albeit sharp or flat?

[direvus]

@Tbushell

A semitone isn’t much. I’m often off by more than that at first.

A semitone might not be much, but it sure is an unfortunate interval to be wrong by, for anyone who has to listen to me sing! That semitone dissonance is nasty.

@Tbushell

Are you trying to hear the note in your head before you sing it? That helped me a lot.

Also, can you play a note, and then match it with your voice…albeit sharp or flat?

I’m playing the note on the guitar, then trying to match it with my voice. I’ve got both the guitar and the microphone going into an interface, and monitoring them in my headphones, while checking a tuner on-screen in GarageBand to see where my voice is landing.

Usually I will play the G on 6th string 3rd fret, then try to sing or hum the same note while the guitar is still ringing out. I do a bit of warbling around until I get the needle zeroed in. Then I repeat that a few times, then I try to sing the same note again without playing it on the guitar. Then I move on to another note. For now I’m just doing the major triad from G.

G2 seems to be a natural resting point for my voice, it’s the note that I get closest to most often if I’m not consciously trying to hit any particular pitch. So that one is the easiest for me to start on. Then I go for the major third (B) and the fifth (D). I seem to land sharp on all 3 of those more often than I land flat.

I can dimly sense a weird kind of resonant feeling with the headphones when I get the note right. I’m trying to pay attention to that feeling and get better at noticing it.

I’ve also seen that when I try to hold a sung note, it tends to pull sharp, the longer I hold it, the more sharp it goes. I can’t hear that, but the tuner shows it very clearly.

As for whether I am ‘hearing’ the note in my mind before I sing it … I think yes? I am trying to recall what the note sounds like, maybe that amounts to the same thing?

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

Jeff

I don’t think you could call it cheating, especially if you use GPs Fretboard view. All you are doing is identifying the note, as you would with the guitar but with the benefit of not needing to write it down manually. Was actually thinking of combining the two tools, guitar and GP, for audio and physical confirmation, if that makes sense.

I am one of those people that has struggled with this over the years and at my age started to think its easier just to find the tab somewhere. But having gone back to the new Grade 3 modules and found the Transcribe lessons again, I actually found the Power Chord “challenges” much easier. I did not get them all 100% and missed a few quick notes but overall, it was much better than it was a few years back. I actually put that down to the development of my lead/impro-ing skills. Especially in that area of being more focused on intervals, allowing licks to be moved around Keys more easily. I think this has helped my ears and made it easier to identify subsequent notes, having first “guessed” the first one.
having the scales in my head gave me a better educated guess of what followed.

This has certainly helped me but obviously it comes in much further down the line/journey, in respect to where Justin introduces transcribing. I am not saying that is too early but you have to start somewhere. Some folks will get it and some, like me will struggle. But with time and development and knowledge (and I’d stress understanding intervals and seeing scales licks etc as intervals) it will get easier.

JMHO.