Triad Theory Question

[jacksprat]

Thanks for your reply. I amended my post while you were composing yours. Hopefully my amended post makes it clearer where I’m coming from.

[jacksprat]

@sequences

I thought a chord by definition was 3 notes, and the slash was played as a fourth bass note over that.

That was my understanding too. But I’ve since found a piano theory website that refers to triad inversions as slash chords.

I guess Richard’s answer of “can”, “likely won’t” and “usually” will have to suffice!

[stitch]

@jacksprat

I guess Richard’s answer of “can”, “likely won’t” and “usually” will have to suffice!

There is a big flaw in music theory when trying to write chord inversions down because there are multiple ways to writen then out and the all mean the same thing.
For example the triad you posted could be called an A shaped triad in this case C or it could be a slash chord C/G or Em#5/G all would be correct.

@jacksprat

The piece calls for a E/G# chord. So an E major triad first inversion (G# B E) should fit the bill if I understand the theory correctly.

You are correct

[sclay]

@sequences

I’d call this a major triad with root on string 3. so far, I think that knowing the root is the important part, not caring if it is an inversion or not. That information is fairly trivial because if the root is not the bass note, it is an inversion, but so what, what do we do with that information? (maybe someone will call me out on that!)

Hey Michael,

Im not going to ’ call you out’, but I will offer another perspective.

I certainly agree that knowing the root is central, particularly for navigation, but knowing the inversions I believe are equally important.
An inversion tells me where all notes are, not just the root note; and regardless of what string set the triad is on.
I have found that getting these slowly ingrained over time is very beneficial for quickly finding melodies, playing surrounding notes, voice leading, and shell voicings, eg. on 7th triads where you may not even play a root note.
Well worth knowing the inversions I reckon.

Cheers, Shane

[Jozsef]

@stitch

@jacksprat

I guess Richard’s answer of “can”, “likely won’t” and “usually” will have to suffice!

There is a big flaw in music theory when trying to write chord inversions down because there are multiple ways to writen then out and the all mean the same thing.
For example the triad you posted could be called an A shaped triad in this case C or it could be a slash chord C/G or Em#5/G all would be correct.

I don’t think it’s the theory’s fault as such, but more of a case of perspective. For example, I wouldn’t name that chord Em#5/G unless that #5 was an important piece of information in the context of the particular song.

I think the possibility of naming the same set of notes in so many ways actually makes theory more compatible with various instruments. A guitar usually has only 6 strings and there’s only so many notes that can be fretted at the same time, so there’s a finite number of possible chord grips and names for them. However, on an instrument like the piano there are far more options to play a given set of notes. Also, there are 30 keys (disregarding double sharps, double flats and similar creatures) which have their own perspective on a particular piece of music and where these “redundant” chord naming options might become useful.

There’s a video of Victor Wooten speaking at a Q&A that was posted elsewhere on here in the past, but it might be worth revisiting: Is Victor Wooten right? Music Theory is SIMPLE! – mDecks Music Blog

[Richard_close2u]

@jacksprat

It’s not clear to me if that includes triads or just chords with more than three notes.

It is an area of ambiguity or multiple options.

@jacksprat

I guess Richard’s answer of “can”, “likely won’t” and “usually” will have to suffice!

Sometimes being vague can be better than being precise! haha

@stitch

There is a big flaw in music theory when trying to write chord inversions down because there are multiple ways to write them out and the all mean the same thing.

To add to that … there are multiple ways to play something written out / named the same way.

Here are two (of many possible) examples of a C triad 2nd inversion. the first is a closed triad (adjacent strings only, the types taught in PMT). The second is an open or spread triad where one of the notes sits within a different octave. These are not covered within PMT.

[sequences]

Hi Shane,

I was thinking something similar later. I’m not sure I know how to use if the inversion is first or second, but I do care about the note positions. I can memorize the major chord and then forming the minor and diminished should be simply scooting 3rd and 5th down a fret.

I hadn’t really thought about the inversion being a part of something to remember, but that may help with remembering 3rd and 5th. It feels like just an additional separation layer at the moment, however.

[stitch]

@sequences heres a hint to help you remember where the intervals are.
This applies to every string exept the B string you have to adjust one fret up.
The 5th is always on the same fret as the Root on the next thickest string.
The 3rd is always right under the Root back one fret.

On the B string the 5th Root and 3rd are all on the same string.

If the 3rd is the first note it is alway above the 5th

[sequences]

Thanks Stitch!

I see the pattern here and I bet I will remember it using a different trick:

• memorize the root position (hard part)
• I can always remember the 3rd is on the next string (number) down.
• If I run out of strings, I just rotate back to the top of the trio

The hard part for me is remembering the different patterns and keeping them from getting mixed up. Some are in memory well because of the open chords, but not all.

This is the table I drew in my notes, just without color. I probably would have seen this a lot faster if I had used color like your image here. I’ll change my notes to do that.

I remember the rules for chord creation, so I should be ok remembering the minor and diminished. I still need to commit augmented to memory. I bet it will be there after this chat.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

You finally run out of yellow boxes sir ?

[sclay]

All good. We’re all the journey.

One thing that is perhaps helpful - and beautifully laid out by Rick’s @stitch diagram here - is that there are only really 3 basic triad shapes in total.

Its just the B string tuning that makes it appear like there’s alot more.

Cheers, Shane

[jacksprat]

@sequences

The hard part for me is remembering the different patterns and keeping them from getting mixed up.

Me too. I think it would take a special person to be able to remember the ‘basic’ inversion shapes, then apply a correction for the B string if required, and finally another correction to the shape to make it minor, aug or dim. Maybe someone with a very fast CPU in their head could do this, but I’m going to have to settle for memorising all the shapes. I’ll make that easier by ignoring the aug and dims for now.

[Socio]

@sclay

beautifully laid out by Rick’s @stitch diagram here - is that there are only really 3 basic triad shapes in total.

I count more than 3 shapes

[stitch]

Once you start using triads to make music it becames just like remembering open or barre chords or more like arpeggios if you use them in solos. You’ll find favorate shapes first then you’ll find convenient shapes the go together with your favorates. Using your ear to find chord tone will come next the you won’t think about it you’ll just find yourself playing what sounds good.

[stitch]

@Socio

I count more than 3 shapes

I think Shane means 3 shapes per string set.

[jacksprat]

Have you guys heard of the Plane Talk method by Kirk Lorange? He advocates only learning the three shapes in the green box. They are all second inversion. The advantage of only remembering these three is you always flatten the thinnest string in the group one fret to make the chord minor. Raise the same note one fret and you have a sus 4. Flatten the root and you get a major7 sound. Flatten the root again and you get a dom7 sound.

[stitch]

@jacksprat

He advocates only learning the three shapes in the green box.

You’ll find you’re jumping all over the neck only using 1 shape per string set and soon be learning the rest. Or you’ll find you never or hardly ever use triads in your playing.
I think Justins method of mastering the 3 shapes per string set together then move to the next string set is a better way to learn them.

[sclay]

Perhaps to clarify the 3 basic ‘shapes’, as I see them.

EAD strings - the 3 basic shapes.

ADG strings - exact same 3 shapes

DGB strings - same 3 ‘shapes’ again, just accommodating the B string tuning

GBE - same 3 ‘shapes’ again, just accommodating B string tuning.

Obviously, there are more than 3 actual visual shapes
Functionally though, there are only 3 basic shapes.

To illustrate, play a root position C major triad.

Start on the bottom 3 strings. So CEG

Drop to the next string (A) , play CEG. Same shape.

Drop to the next string (D) , play CEG. Same shape again, except the G note moves up a fret on the B string.

Drop to the next string, play CEG. Same shape again, except now both notes (E and G) are moved up one fret on the B and e strings respectively.

Play the 2 inversions as per above, and you have the other 2 basic shapes.

Cheers, Shane.

[jacksprat]

@stitch

You’ll find you’re jumping all over the neck only using 1 shape per string set and soon be learning the rest.

True, knowing all the shapes does facilitate less movement.

[Jozsef]

@jacksprat

the three shapes in the green box. They are all second inversion.

I hope I’m stating the obvious, but these are also subsets of the E-, A- and D-shape major barre chord grips. For beginners, this might be more tangible than all of them being 2nd inversions.