Audio Interface Issue

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

John

NOTE this is not and has never been my GOTO audio interface. It was used on two projects for vocals only, in the garage and into a laptop, requiring a hell of a lot of shouting

I am now using a Behringer UMC1820 and prior to that a number of Xenyx Mixers.

A very frustrating experiment using my old UM2. Connected to PC via USB only.

Managed to record guitar via OBS after setting the UM2 as the default recording device in Windows Sound Control Panel. Upload to YouTube -6 db. Gain 2 in the 3 o’clock position and acoustic pre-amp set around 75% volume.

Then did separate mic test (Shure SM58) into UM2 XLR, declared as mic in Zoom, again with Gain in 3 o’clock position. Upload to YouTube -17.4 db. Not surprised as pretty much had to max the gain when used on previous projects.

Vox In Reaper
Setting up audio preferences as ASIO and then the UM2 no problems with mic. 3 o’clock gain about -16 db in Reaper 4 o’clock around -10 to -8 depending on voice volume.

Gtr In Reaper
OK for starters I only ever used the UM2 for vox projects in the past, so decided to use the T-Bucket with Fishman pre-amp.

• With Audio System declared as ASIO -zero sound from guitar.
• With Audio System declared Direct Sound massive latency - unusable
• With Audio System declared Wave Out moderate latency unusable
• With Audio System declared Dummy Audio no sound
• With Audio System declared WASPI HFR !! Sound with negligible latency but only around -20db

So pretty much useless as a Guitar input but OK for mic only.

Before writing this, did a quick google for Reaper/Guitar/UM2 and loads of post for zero sound in Reaper using the correct driver, in this case ASIO4ALL, as Behringer ditched own brand drivers a good few years back and they were most likely “white goods” anyway.

So after nearly 2 hours, Guitar and UM2 not working as designed but OKish with MIC but not particularly good levels using a dynamic mic - pretty much needed maxing out.

I will let you draw you own conclusions.

Cheers

Toby

[Willsie01]

I take it your a big fan of the UM2!

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

Ronseal it ain’t ! That’s for sure.

[DavidP]

@Majik Thanks for the extensive right up on the dB scale and dynamic range. Maybe it is something that should be cut from this topic and posted as it’s own topic in an appropriate category … what do you think @Richard_close2u

@Willsie01

John, I’ve listened to Test4. Volume and audio quality more than good enough for making recordings for AVOYP just as is.

How did you achieve the panning?

The test recording from Zoom is good enough as is for OM events. I also recall that videos made via Zoom meeting recording were at a lower volume level given identical settings to a recording made from OBS.

Kenny’s tutorials are one of the reasons to pick Reaper IMHO. I know YT is full of educational videos, but his videos are so well done, extensive, organised that it makes learning to use Reaper a pleasure.

I assume that when time permits you will make some recordings into Reaper. As I said before, I am interested in what levels you achieve, both vocal and guitar, from UM2 into Reaper, what you see in Reaper as you adjust the gain on UM2.

Based on what you’ve said and now Toby has shared, it sounds to me that that the AI itself may be a part of your experience.

That said, as I said above, I think at this stage you are able to make both AVOYP videos using QT and participate in OM on Zoom, having resolved the distortion issue you had a couple of OMs back and the lack of sound on the Mac recently.

So where to next depends on your aspirations.

For example, you could introduce OBS as a tool for both making videos and streaming to Zoom. The one reason I can see to do that would be to be able to have more control on the audio output. OBS allows you to add in some effects that you could use to raise your levels, add some reverb onto the vocal (if you wanted to do so) etc. You can do this in OBS without adding Reaper into the chain. You can also play with extra cameras.

These days, I only use Reaper when I want to start producing songs that involve more than just me playing and singing. My Simple Blues Lead study project is a typical example of that. For just playing and singing, with a better quality audio than can be achieved by just using a mobile phone to record the video with the phone mic (though these days for AVOYP it is more than good enough), I use only OBS.

Glad you’ve made this progress, so look forward to both more videos in AVOYP and you performing at the next OM.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

John

Time to reflect.

I think if your primary objective is AOVYP and Open Mic via Zoom, like David I think the audio quality is now at an acceptable level. The main thing is you have now have a clear audio with no interference. Like David I would suggest using OBS for videos, as you can enhance the audio as it supports VST plugins. And you can stream from OBS to Zoom, which should give you better Open Mic levels (certainly from the figures I was getting last night). Also using OBS I don’t think you would have to drive the UM2 so hard but it seems you need to be fairly high on the gain settings to get a decent output. So you are good to go !!

MHO if you want to be using Reaper in the future, you may need a different AI in order to hear the Guitar. And it would seem it is not just Reaper, same issue was reported for the UM2 with other DAWs. As yet I have not found anything that suggests a solution but I’ll keep looking.
So as to Reaper, as I said :

@TheMadman_tobyjenner

Ronseal it ain’t ! That’s for sure.

Now get some recording done, so we can see all this has borne fruit

Cheers

Toby

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

Any Behringer U-Phoria UM2 users out in the Community ??

So reaching out the the many thousands of members we now have in our Community, is anyone else using a UM2 for guitar with a DAW ??

Did you have issues getting it to work ?
Did you get it to work ?
If so how did you get it to work ?

Let see if we can collectively help @Willsie01 in order that he can use Reaper in the future.

Cheers

Toby

[DavidP]

@TheMadman_tobyjenner

Any Behringer U-Phoria UM2 users out in the Community ??

Might be more effective post the questions as a new topic with the quoted text as the title?

I think the volume of posting is up on what it used to be and I suspect a good chance that this may be missed by people scanning posts and only dipping in to a subset, perhaps not being drawn to read this Topic.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

Might have found something so hold that thought
Need to walk dog first

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

OK we now have Reaper and sound via the UM2 !!

Not sure if I should put this down as a schoolboy error but I think the last time I did what I needed to fix it, was over 5 years ago and I’ve slept since then !!

Basically, the UM2 was not selected in the ASIO Configuration. Doh !!

When I have added new AIs in the past, I think I only once had to manually set the unit in the ASIO Config and as I say I have slept since then, What bothered me was not seeing the UM2 (USB Audio Codec) as an Input, when the Reaper Audio Preferences settings were Audio System = ASIO and ASIO Driver = ASIO4ALL. But it showed up when selecting the other "system " options.

So I selected ASIO Configuration and saw that “High Definition Audio Devicse” had been declared automatically from the device list. Selected the entry for the UM2, came out, picked up the acoustic and recorded at levels up to -7 Db. So not the AI it was the configuration

I guess when I used it on the laptop a few years back, it was the only AI that had ever been connected, so ASIO would have selected it by default. And all subsequent AIs used on the PC had been picked up by default automatically,

So question for @Willsie01 does this help you on the Reaper front ?

Cheers

Toby

[Majik]

@TheMadman_tobyjenner

So I selected ASIO Configuration and saw that “High Definition Audio Devicse” had been declared automatically from the device list. Selected the entry for the UM2, came out, picked up the acoustic and recorded at levels up to -7 Db. So not the AI it was the configuration

Nice one Tony. I was confused about that because, as far as the PC is concerned, an audio interface is an audio interface and if it works in a given way in one application, it should work the same in all other applications (there are exceptions to that, especially on Linux).

@DavidP

Maybe it is something that should be cut from this topic and posted as it’s own topic in an appropriate category

I’m happy to do that if people think it may be useful. It could be posted under a broader topic which could include Gain Staging, but it might be better if I review it and, maybe rewrite some bits and see if there’s any pictures I can include.

I did write this off the cuff and in a hurry, so it might not be the best guide as it is.

In particular, I would like to research and revise the section on Youtube uploading as I think that can be improved.

Cheers,

Keith

[Willsie01]

@DavidP I agree @Majik 's post is great reference material and deserves to be easily accessible. I’ve bookmarked it although I don’t yet know how to access these yet.
Test 4: the way this recorded is down to how QT or my laptop works, nothing to do with any choices from me. All I did was select USB Audio CODEC as the sound input in System Preferences on my MacBook. This meant both my voice and Guitar were recorded on to the left side (or should the correct term be channel) through the mic, gain 1, and the guitar alone is recorded on the right side/channel, through the inst, gain 2. I don’t know why this works this way. Might explain why some recordings I have uploaded to YouTube (e.g. Fire & Rain) only output on the left side, which members have commented on. if I didn’t have the guitar going through gain 2 properly. So, no panning from me.
Yes, when time permits, difficulty in itself, I will be trying to use Reaper. I am thinking of finding something to replace the UM2 for recording the guitar after @TheMadman_tobyjenner 's and my experience with it.
I am looking forward to familiarising myself with both Reaper and OBS. Time permitting, because first and foremost I want to improve my playing and singing and after the time I put into that and my family chores time is very limited!

[Willsie01]

@TheMadman_tobyjenner the primary aim is to improve musically and I’m recognising that all this recording and production is a big part of that. I very much appreciate the help you guys are giving me.

[Willsie01]

…I’d just add from my perspective I’m interested in other Mac users experience with it.

[DavidP]

@Willsie01

I don’t know why this works this way. Might explain why some recordings I have uploaded to YouTube (e.g. Fire & Rain) only output on the left side

Seems odd that one input should be left and the other right by default.

And agree it would explain some of the previous recordings.

I think some tests into Reaper will be helpful to see what is going on.

Maybe there are some other config settings in a Mac?

But at least you can now make recordings and focus more on music making than all these technicalities.

WRT bookmarks. If I click on my avatar top right I see a bookmark icon. Check that for the bookmarked post?.

[Willsie01]

@DavidP

WRT bookmarks. If I click on my avatar top right I see a bookmark icon. Check that for the bookmarked post?.

That’s it…great!
told post must be minimum 20 characters, so have to add this!

[Willsie01]

@TheMadman_tobyjenner

Now get some recording done, so we can see all this has borne fruit

I’ll start work right away on Little Green Apples…

[Majik]

@DavidP

Seems odd that one input should be left and the other right by default.

It’s actually quite common. The audio interface driver will, often, just tell the Operating System how many channels it has. It doesn’t tell it anything about how those channels should be arranged.

In this case, when it sees two channels, the OS will make assumptions about what those channels should be used for

For a 2 in, 2 out audio interface, it’s normal to assume that is stereo in and stereo out.

On multiple-channel AIs, it’s common for the OS to assume that the outputs are a surround-sound system, even when they should be individual outputs or stereo pairs

Depending on what application you are using, there’s often a way to change this and tell the OS exactly how to treat the inputs and outputs.

For instance, on Pulseaudio/Pipewire on Linux with my UMC204HD I get the following options:

If I set it to “Analogue Surround 4.0 Output + Analog Stereo Input”, I get this:

If I set it to “Analog Stereo Input”, I get this:

And if I set it to “Pro Audio”, which means “treat each channel as an individual input/output”, I get this:

Alternatively, on a DAW, you can individually connect channels to mono or stereo (or multichannel) tracks.

Cheers,

Keith

[DavidP]

@Majik

It’s actually quite common. The audio interface driver will, often, just tell the Operating System how many channels it has. It doesn’t tell it anything about how those channels should be arranged.

Thanks Keith. I live and learn, learn, learn …

[Majik]

No problem, David.

The small part I didn’t mention is that, for most applications on a PC (including the OS itself) it’s important to map the AI channels in a particular default way. Otherwise every time you opened your web browser (for instance) you would have to configure which audio channels it used.

Having a default setup means you can just, mostly, use your PC without having to worry about how the audio works. Of course, it does get more complicated with multiple audio interfaces and audio interfaces with multiple channels.

You don’t need that with a DAW because you, typically, tell it that you are (for instance) creating two mono channels and then manually select which channel should be used for those tracks.

Cheers,

Keith