Enter Sandman rhythm guitar cover. Metal time!

[jkahn]

@DavidP

Spectactular, JK, that was outstanding, super impressive. You’ve mastered the parts, playing along, and a killer tone.

Thanks so much David, glad you enjoyed it .

@DavidP

Maybe one day I shall pluck up the courage.

Do it! When I started this one it felt almost impossible. Some of the riffs I couldn’t get the fingering, timing, they seemed to complex, etc. Eventually I had memorised them. It is totally worth getting into songs that are a bit more complex, they’re a challenge but eventually it all falls into place. You can see I still can’t play it without looking at the fretboard. This is meant to be an “easy” Metallica song, I can’t imagine playing it while singing and not looking at the fretboard at all like Hetfield does.

@DavidP

As for not being a metal guy. Metal is now such a broad term covering so much ground it is hard not to be a metal guy, or at least enjoy a lttle metal.

I mean Justin called Paranoid by Black Sabbeth one of the great, classic metal tunes. I’ve never ever thought of them as a metal band, considering them to be just the heaviest of the hard rock bands.

So I enjoy Sabbeth, Purple, Lizzy, Maiden, that Metallica black album, Van Halen, Guns n Roses. Am I a bit of a metal-head?

And am I not also right in saying that many hardcore Metallica fans consider that Black Album to be a bit soft, a commercial sellout?

Anyhow, who cares, bring on more rock or metal or grunge or whatever …

I like your thinking here David. Yeah, I guess there’s so much that’s called metal. To me a lot of it doesn’t seem like what I think of as “metal” in my head. Maybe that’s just some framing I’ve created that doesn’t really exist.

Sabbath, like you say, I think of as hard rock too. Paranoid, I’m playing at a bit these days .

On “metal guy”, and “metal” I’m thinking early Metallica, Iron Maiden, Slayer. Slipknot. Gojira maybe? Stuff that’s angry, fast, chugga-chugga. Of all those the only one I like is Metallica. They also seem the least angry. The straw-man “metal guy” in my head wears the t shirts of only heavy metal bands and wouldn’t choose to listen to Cat Stevens, Jack Johnson, etc. So I guess I don’t think of myself as a metal guy, but I like some metal.

I quite enjoy Metallica’s black album, and some of their newer stuff, which like you say is when they stopped being as hardcore. That’s probably why I like it - more groove, a bit more melody in it.

Van Halen & GnR I love (well, appetite for destruction at least) - Van Halen in particular is just insanely good - are they metal? I think of them as hard rock. So hard to figure out actual classifications. You know I’m also a huge grunge fan, which when I was discovering it was mainly called just rock, hard rock, or alternative. In the 90s.

[alexisduprey]

Great work JK! Loved the tone you used and you’re rhythm was on point. I vote more metal from you!

[roger_holland]

@DavidP

And am I not also right in saying that many hardcore Metallica fans consider that Black Album to be a bit soft, a commercial sellout?

you are absolutely right,…the very first moment even before it was in the store, we could listen to it on the radio in the Netherlands…vara`s vuurwerk…me and a large group of friends(and some magazines) and the months afterwards reluctantly admitted that there were 3 okay songs on it, … but we hate the rest then, and at the next concert there were men in a neat shirt instead of a t-shirt with a skull or something terrifying… .terrible those neat clothes there ,…commercial rubbish they had made … We were still young morons then

But JK,…

@jkahn

a bit more melody in it.

That’s quite an insult to the great melodic lines that are played in many songs on multiple albums,…Go rinse your mouth with water
And even in the short time that I even listened to Slayer…, Dire straits, Cat Stevens etc were playing on the cassette desk also,…And with many of my friends / acquaintances then too, and with some still, although I don’t know anyone personally who listens to Slayer anymore,…I recently came across an old t-shirt of it ,…phew
Greetings,…

[Nancy15]

That was superb JK and what a kickass tune to debut your metal playing

[sairfingers]

I’m not a metal fan JK but that was really great. As others have said, what is the definition of metal nowadays?
Super guitar work there, great tone, all round a terrific job. Well done.

[DavidP]

@jkahn

GnR I love (well, appetite for destruction at least)

And imagine if Use Your Illusion had been produced as just one double album rather than two. I think there are some fantastic songs (Civil War, Coma, November Rain, Estranged) but far too much filler. Maybe too many power ballads which perhaps makes it too soft but still.

[twistor59]

Nicely played JK. Are you sure you’re not a metal guy?

[nzmetal]

Holy schmokes, JK! You smashed that!
Loved the distorted tone, sounded great! Playing was super solid! Well done buddy! We’ll need to jam one day! Yeewwww!!!

[jkahn]

Okay, I’m a metal guy now! Gotta go order the metallica t shirt.

@alexisduprey

Loved the tone you used and you’re rhythm was on point. I vote more metal from you!

Thanks Alexis! Chugga chugga chugga

@roger_holland

And even in the short time that I even listened to Slayer…, Dire straits, Cat Stevens etc were playing on the cassette desk also,…And with many of my friends / acquaintances then too, and with some still, although I don’t know anyone personally who listens to Slayer anymore,…

I’m going to put my foot even deeper in it Rogier, I was kind of meaning vocal melody. But what do I know, I’m going to just end up being more wrong! I blame you for making me a metal guy now

Although I still can’t listen to Slayer I had And Justice For All & Master Of Puppets on repeat today.

Were using your old Cat Stevens tapes to dub the Slayer album? Surely that’s the only reason for a Slayer fan to have that in the tape deck

@Nancy15

That was superb JK and what a kickass tune to debut your metal playing

Thanks Nancy!

@sairfingers

I’m not a metal fan JK but that was really great. As others have said, what is the definition of metal nowadays?

Thanks for checking it our Gordon, one day I’ll do a beatles tune or something (tbh I’m more of a beatles fan)

@DavidP

And imagine if Use Your Illusion had been produced as just one double album rather than two.

Agreed, it’s like GnR were appealing to the quantity over quality crowd. Or maybe it was part of their self destruction and they just couldn’t agree.

@twistor59

Are you sure you’re not a metal guy?

I am, I’m not. I am. OK I must be. Cheers Phil.

@nzmetal

Holy schmokes, JK! You smashed that!

Haha, I was wondering when you’d check it out Jeff. I couldn’t get the chorus lead fills good enough in time so I stuck with the rhythm. Such a cracking song to play. Funnily enough I’m heading to NZ later this month to visit some family but the other island (and without a guitar). Thanks for the kudos!

[roger_holland]

@jkahn

I’m going to put my foot even deeper in it Rogier, I was kind of meaning vocal melody. But what do I know,

Well, …actually you might be right ,…at the beginning of the sentence I thought “nooooooooo” but when the rest of the sentence came I thought, “maybe that weirdo has a point” …but I like to be contradicted by people who have more understanding of this way of singing how it works musically,…you have 2 wonderful albums on your mind,…and actually is all the old work super as far as I’m concerned,…THE Slayer tapes are absolutely taped over because it was quickly too intense for me,…what a noise that was, …but for fans of the harder drumming (I hand 2 friends drumming)) it was nice to (short) with them in my teenage years,…

As far as I’m concerned you get away with this answer completely
Greetings,…

[CT]

Nice! Saw this one the other day on the big screen. You’re having fun and rocking the snot out of it. Dig it! There’s always that anticipation on this track --will he rock the scorching lead or not? No worries, it’s a nice stretch goal. Well done sir!

[nzmetal]

@jkahn

Were using your old Cat Stevens tapes to dub the Slayer album? Surely that’s the only reason for a Slayer fan to have that in the tape deck

Bahaha! Awesome!

@jkahn

I’m heading to NZ later this month

Oh wow, rad! Shame no opportunity for a jam, but have a great time anyway!

[Endureth]

Wow, so much in this thread I want to cover, not just the OP, but a lot of the comments, here I go.

First, I love seeing more metal and thrash on these forums, when I first came here they were few and far between so seeing the crunchier side of music becoming even more mainstream thrills me.

I’ll do the hard stuff first, the criticism. And I hope this is all taken constructively. The timing is off (late), I could tell within the first two bars. Overall it was also not properly “crunchy”, the tone yes, but not the fingers. I want to advise you to practice two specific techniques outside of the song itself.

First is timing. The problem here is in your syncopation (the “up” notes or the “ands”). For this I recommend using a metronome to play any scale (good scale practice) using 8th notes, up and down picks. So one bar: one scale run. Then after a bit running through it stop playing the downs and just the ups and concentrate HARD to make sure the space needed for the downs is there, but it’s perfectly silent. If done right is should sound like a machine, click-C-click-D-click-E-click-F…etc…

The other technique is muting which you’ll need to practice for the timing example I already gave. The key to metal (or more specifically thrash where Metallica is concerned) is those tight aggressive notes and that can only be realized fully once you master the muting. Justin has great lessons on muting so hit those.

There are tons of syncopation/muting exercises out there. When learning a new technique, practicing them strictly in the context of a song can cause you to lose focus on the technique itself. I advise taking a week or two, just 15 minutes per day, and focus intently on those two techniques SLOWLY until you feel the space in between the notes. Then come back to the song and see how it feels.

Thrash and Metal live really close to my heart

As for the song being hard, it can be… until you get those two techniques down. Please, don’t misunderstand me, I liked it A LOT. I love that you’re learning and posting it! Keep it up, you’ve got the song down for sure. There was a little triplet you did at 4:44 that made me think it should be there in the original song, lol. Sounded totally metal.

Now DavidP:

Black Sabbath are considered the fathers of modern metal music. I don’t think there’s much debate about that. Some people include Zeppelin and Deep Purple in the same class as Sabbath but the subject matters for most true metal music are social issues, government overreach and corruption, and religion. Not strictly, but mostly.

“Paranoid” by Black Sabbath is totally metal and about a social issue. In my autistic brain it is totally about my autism. And this song was written before anyone really understood what autism was. Very telling of Ozzy.

Maiden’s totally Heavy Metal for sure but a lot of people don’t include them because their subject matter is mostly about historical events. I do because they kick a$$. Van Halen and GnR are just considered hard rock strictly because of the subject matter (more happy, lots of Major keys).

The big four: Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer and Anthrax are technically thrash, not metal.

And it’s true that Metallica sort of switched to a more commercially acceptable hard rock song structure with metal guitar tones on the insistence of the producer of the Black Album, Bob Rock. But I’m convinced it was more because Cliff Burton (bassist, who was classically trained in music theory by his mother, a concert pianist) died and Dave Mustaine (lead guitarist) was out of the band. They were both major contributors to Metallica’s early sound. James can’t write that way on his own. Mustaine took the thrash with him.

But, I digress. Bring on more rock or metal or grunge or whatever …

I still listen to Slayer. A lot. Their lead singer is the bassist.

I leave you with this, even Metallica has trouble playing the notes in between and you can hear how much muting is needed.

Metallica - Kirk Hammett Tough Riff

[jkahn]

@Endureth

I’ll do the hard stuff first, the criticism. And I hope this is all taken constructively. The timing is off (late), I could tell within the first two bars. Overall it was also not properly “crunchy”, the tone yes, but not the fingers. I want to advise you to practice two specific techniques outside of the song itself.

First is timing. The problem here is in your syncopation (the “up” notes or the “ands”). For this I recommend using a metronome to play any scale (good scale practice) using 8th notes, up and down picks. So one bar: one scale run. Then after a bit running through it stop playing the downs and just the ups and concentrate HARD to make sure the space needed for the downs is there, but it’s perfectly silent. If done right is should sound like a machine, click-C-click-D-click-E-click-F…etc…

The other technique is muting which you’ll need to practice for the timing example I already gave. The key to metal (or more specifically thrash where Metallica is concerned) is those tight aggressive notes and that can only be realized fully once you master the muting. Justin has great lessons on muting so hit those.

Thanks heaps for checking the video out John, and for the feedback. Stuff like this helps me improve. It’s my play level - so much to learn! When posting I’m fully aware it is far from pro quality, but as good as I can get it right now.

Of your feedback, what I could tell before - muting. I’ve been practicing muting all the time but I know I’ve still got a long way to go! I can hear extra strings sometimes particularly in the chorus power chords on this one. I figured post it anyway because it will be a LONG time before I sort out my muting game. Working on it, slowly.

The timing / syncopation thing is extremely helpful. I could hear something was not quite right in the timing. I felt I was playing in time from a bar / quarter note context, however you’re right - the even spacing in the eighth notes is not there. I can keep time with a band but gotta sort out the even spacing. I’m fortunate in that YEARS ago - 20 years ago, as a teenager - I played drums. So I can generally hear timing reasonably well even though I’m rusty at it. However playing it is a completely different game! Not relevant for this song, but e.g. my alternate picking is not even when I start to push my speed.

Thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it! And from a real metal guy too, in a metal band and all (I’ve watched your vids when you post them)

[Socio]

@jkahn

Thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it! And from a real metal guy too, in a metal band and al

I’ll second that mate, that’s some great constructive feedback which I know both of us find really helpful. I’m not that much into metal music but then maybe its because my circle of friends growing up weren’t into metal music. So something I’ll need to explore and your post was a fascinating starting point and a lot I can learn from mate. This is one I’d like to see you revisiting now your a metal head and dragging me down that path too.

[Endureth]

The good as you’re are right now is right where you should be. Next month you’ll be better, yet still just as good as you are right now.

Keep it up, I love music of all types. Cat Stevens rocks btw, grew up on that stuff. So many bands have covered him.

[DavidP]

@Endureth
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, John. I’m by nature a curious soul and always keen to learn more.

@Endureth

Now DavidP:

Black Sabbath are considered the fathers of modern metal music. I don’t think there’s much debate about that.

Agreed. I vividly remember as an 11-12 year old seeing older kids with canvas school bags emblazoned with the band names of the British Big Three, and hearing both the words ‘heavy’ and ‘underground’ in association with the bands and their music.

@Endureth

but the subject matters for most true metal music are social issues, government overreach and corruption, and religion. Not strictly, but mostly.

This was a new perspective. I’ve never thought about how lyrical content might be relevant in a discussion about genres.

I do recall reading a comment about Iron Maiden along the lines that because of the heavy nature of the music lyrics about tip-toeing through fields of tulips just wouldn’t fit.

@Endureth

Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer and Anthrax are technically thrash, not metal.

Now my understanding was that ‘thrash’ is a sub-genre of metal and that ‘metal’ is just dropped from the reference to abbreviate the label.

But it’s a bit academic I guess. One either likes the music or not. And I recall Elijah Wald in his book ‘Escaping the Delta’ talking about genre labels as being just a means to help retailers group albums so buyers could find what they were looking for and being generally quite a flawed business (if I recall and understood correctly).

But it is interesting, so much so I had to Google and found this interesting article https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19401159.2013.846655 and then on wikipedia (and I know it is not a truth that if something is on wikipedia it is truth) Heavy metal genres - Wikipedia

[brianlarsen]

Okay, I listened.
I admired.
I waited until everyone else said the appropriate things about a genre that I only know superficially (but was pleased to recognise )
Only the bassist of a metal band would have the chutzpah to tell the ex-drummer his timing is off It’s all beyond me.
I think all has been said except maybe that I’m also impressed at the stamina and concentration. That’s a long time to keep it all together.
Hats off!

@Endureth

the subject matters for most true metal music are

Never thought of music in terms issue-specific genres before.
I see it more along the lines of punk: expressing anger/dissatisfaction in a high-energy form

[nzmetal]

@Endureth awesome advice, I’m just soaking that up, thanks for sharing!

@Endureth

First is timing. The problem here is in your syncopation (the “up” notes or the “ands”). For this I recommend using a metronome to play any scale (good scale practice) using 8th notes, up and down picks. So one bar: one scale run. Then after a bit running through it stop playing the downs and just the ups and concentrate HARD to make sure the space needed for the downs is there, but it’s perfectly silent. If done right is should sound like a machine, click-C-click-D-click-E-click-F…etc…

Starting this from now… my timing is atrocious!

[Endureth]

Yeah, it’s just a bunch of sub-genres now and can get confusing, if one were to bother keeping up. That’s a heck of a wikipedia list David posted. Punk certainly influenced and informed the early stages of metal. The Misfits for example were a huge influence to a lot of early thrash bands.

This was a great conclusion by the author of the the essay you linked:

“A genre’s name denotes the genre itself, and serves as a shorthand for the genre’s rules. But it does more than that; it calls attention to how to hear the genre, what feeling is appropriate to hearing it. That is, the genre’s name connotes a sensibility.”

All music is about something or other. Metal comes across, as Brian stated, as ‘expressing anger/dissatisfaction in a high-energy form’. That’s true, but the missing element that helps define the genres is what are they angry/dissatisfied about? What are they saying. In this sense, Rap and metal are related. Body Count tried to bridge that particular gap. I love Body Count, so much honesty in that band.

When I look at the long list of genres David posted it’s clear to me that the definition has expanded. But my opinion doesn’t matter, nor do my tastes. Music is personal, and everything is in the mind of the listener. I’m sure not a lot of people hear ‘Paranoid’ the way I do.

Great discussion.