I would like to ask fingerstyle players about my next step in fingerstyle learning.
My path divided in Grade 2 where I decided to learn fingerstyle - the main reason I picked guitar at all.
I started with Paul Davids and now I am mixing it with Marco Cirillo.
I learned from Paul alternating thumb in 4th, 5th and 6th string. Then assign each finger to string - first finger to 3rd, second finger to 2nd and 3rd finger to 1st string. I think I got a little habit in my fingers now and I can do it.
Marco is using alternate fingerpicking mostly between point finger and middle finger moving up and down.
I would like to know from you experienced onesā¦ if its OK to learn this too right now next to assigning finger to one string. I can feel I can do it and I wont mess anythingā¦ but at the same time I got ālittle warā in my head if I it is better to learn one technique perfectly or of its more profitable to learn my fingers more patterns and āflexibilityā. I got lot of time for learning.
Please feel free to check my few fingerpick short videos so you can see and maybe judge:
First of all, very nice right hand, mate! Good position, it looks relaxed and comfortable.
There are some little things that could be improved, but itās impossible to describe them in writing, at least for me. If you want, we can have a zoom chat one day, and Iāll show you a trick or two.
Second, orderly learning is overrated, try and play whatever you want, especially because when we are excited about something, we work on it harder, and itās fun. Only if you feel that youāre overreaching, stop and go back to basics.
All the above is just my opinion, of course
Using the fixed allocation as a primer always felt like the āindustry standardā to me.
I initially approach every song from the fixed allocation but I do realise soon that certain pieces require some deviations. You can only do that if you have some automated skills for -both- methods so learning an alternate way is valuable at some point.
I would approach it is:
primary style: fixed allocation
secondary style: alternating/not sticking to the āruleā where demmed easier, better flow/in function of context.
I deviate fast and I deviate A LOT.
I seek the ath of least resistance and I donāt care much for academic purism in this department | Context is key. The nature of the song says a lot. Dust In The Wind is mainly a fixed position but MY VERSION evolved to something that mixes a bunch of things.
Taking your third video as example.
Iāve got no guitar here but I think I would struggle from halfway the video, using only my thumb to do several picks in a certain timing, mixing same-string and other string picks
The first half is pretty sandard, the second part would make me want to deviate from the standard.
as @Alexeyd said, donāt let academics stop your drive and excitement. You can take his word for it; his ast appearance on the Open Mic was proof of his credibility
@Alexeyd Thanks for fast check!
Your offer sounds really great and that is something I would really like to use. Can we āmeetā on WhatsApp or somewhere to talk about time and things?
I really enjoy fixed positionā¦ I cant count how many hours I spent by TV doing it. But in loop for few chordsā¦ I enjoy it. Its not for everyone I guess.
You got pointā¦ I am excited for some songs and I can see potential they are better to play it with alternating, because I dont think you can be āso fastā to play it only with one finger. With two it feels like you are ārunningā on that string.
@LievenDV Thank you Leiven, you always know what to say. Its not firstā¦ and not last time you are helping me and I really appreciate that.
You are talking about third videoā¦ about seconds partā¦ that is exactly spot where Marco is using alternate fingers, but I am using here fixed because it feels more comfortable and natural to me. But this is just āsimpleā one. When I check something more complex I can see it should be easier with alternate than with fixed.
I am still hungry for something newā¦ learning it and then going for more and I can feel how everything is connected. Even techniques that are not connected at all.
I can remember learning āspider exerciseā with pick. Paralel I was learning fingerstyle picking stringsā¦ and together I can play scales with fixed fingers pretty decent.
Its crazy how far I am when I look back one year.
I will give it a try and if it wont workā¦ I will learn more so I can do it. Thanks for valuable words.
Iād say it depends on the piece, or even on the phrase within a piece, but by default I play fingerstyle with alternating fingers (in PIMA nomenclature, usually i and m, but sometime a gets involved). Basically the classical guitar approach.
If youāre looking for a different approach go take a look at Justin Johnson, he did a very good tutorial on Finger picking, I know of Marco, I have followed lots of his tutorials, he is quite good. I think that if you really enjoy finger picking you should explore all of the areas where itās used including Classical guitar. You then have a broader pallet to use to do what you want.
@DarrellW Great idea. I watched some of his tutorials months agoā¦ really great player but for me he is like level expertā¦ he is also really tall with double long my fingers. Watched his advice for learning fingerstyle, but did not follow any of his lesson. I know few months ago he made his own course.
I like exploring others. Main goal is not to get lost.
Michal, @Carreta , thanks for bringing this up. I am fairly new to guitar (4yrs young) and not proficient enough to comment upon your technique.
Both Alexey, @Alexeyd, and Lieven, @LievenDV , make valid points and I would sieze the opportunity if an offer of sharing a few tips was made to me ā¦ . And if I may be as bold to suggest; perhaps a āguest appearanceā at a future Motivation & Inspiration Club session ā¦
Whatever is working for you, is the right thing to be doing, however in terms of technique thereās always the possibility of āinformation overloadā in trying to follow several online teachers.
Thereās no right or wrong in this; one cannot really criticise the styles of Paul McCartney (Blackbird) , or Mark Knoffler (Romeo & Juliet); arguably two āmust learnā classics in modern-day fingerpicking song compositions (imho). Thereās a guy online who has done good lessons on these: Blackbird , Romeo & Juliet .
My personal experience:
the Thumb is mostly dumb, good for bass-line picking (strings 4-6), keeping the beat, and muting strings.
having a finger/ string-assignment (ie. Index finger - 3, Second - 2, Third - 1) is a good place to start and ābeginner songsā mostly cater for this. However, there are songs where ābreaking the rulesā has to be done for oneās own sanity !
the Pinky - 4 is used by some an anchor-point (personally, I donāt do this, preferring the picking hand to āfloat freelyā). I mostly curl it under my picking hand, sometimes using to mute strings that I would rather not let people hear. That said, subconsciously I sometimes anchor the pinky when flat-picking ā¦
Hereās the thing:
Most āpro mucisiansā have developed their own technique, however we like to learn songs written and performed by different musicians. Hence we either copy their technique (obviously it works ā¦ for them), or we need to adapt and develop a technique for ourselves. The listener (aside the odd ā¦ ) wants to enjoy a song that is well played and wonāt really care about which finger was assigned to a particular string.
Just as the thumb, the role of the pinky is often discussed as well.
Thatās isnāt a bad idea at all. Perhaps in a slightly different format (a non-live one, where I can edit bits i do with several people, like you, @Alexeyd etc )
Iāll have to get back on that later.
Is this teaching a specific etude ? I did Marco 7 Day Finger Picking course a bout 3 years ago and just had a look at the screen shot I grabbed, From what I recall from a beginners perspective Marco teaches PIMA as covered in earlier replies. I know in some of his āsongā related lessons he will not stick strictly to PIMA, so I wonder if you were watching one of those.
So if you you are just starting out I recommend using PIMA as it is generally the common approach.
@TheMadman_tobyjenner For me Marco likes much more classical guitar and you can see it in many of his videosā¦ especially in his fingerpicking style.
For example that alternating finger on one string you can see in this video which is summary of 7 days daily learning something new. He is alternating on 2nd string and he use it very often.
Did you mean this mini course too?
I must say I am through this course and I used this only in day 1ā¦ then I adapted whole thing to PIMA, cuz it feels more comfortable to me. I can feel I can not get that speed with my technique.
I believe Marco is classically trained. @AlexeyD too. Paul Davids doesnāt seem to be - although his bio mentions a music degree at Rotterdam Conservatory but not what style he studied. I donāt recall seeing him play classical - but quite a lot of steel string acoustic.
If you have come across mention of PIMA then that is a carry-over from the classical world.
P is thumb.
IMA are three fingers, not two.
If Marco is occasionally deciding to use only two fingers and shift their positions to cover three strings (seen as two pairs with B-string as a common factor) then he must have a reason for it. Does he not give one in his videos?
From what you share, youāre not playing classical music, youāre practicing and playing folk and blues-influenced music (at least in these three videos).
@Richard_close2u I think Marco tells to use it, because its how you mentionā¦ his main is classical playing and for him it makes much more sense. Also when you need some faster parts.
And that is what I am exactly talking aboutā¦ now I am influenced by Paul Davids much more, but at the same time I like Marcos playing and he is doing different technique and I just wanted to know if I should be more open to different fingerstyle or a more conservative and ābe loyalā to one, because I am not that far in fingerstyle yet.
But when I write this and what I can see from you all guys its good to learn new things and if I dont feel overwhelmed it is OK.
I went through Marcos 7 days mini course which I shared and many pieces I adapted for myself to play it like Paul than how Marco wants me.
In the endā¦ I am collecting knowledge now and getting ready plan for next year. This week I started learning some fingerstyle Christmass songs, because its time and I like it. Take it easy, enjoy it.
Hi @Richard_close2u, I believe @Carretaās original question regards playing a run of notes on a single string with 2 different fingers (what he calls āalternate fingerpickingā). You can see this in the posted Cirillo video around at around 12:00. This style goes beyond the usual idea of assigning 1 finger to each string.
Iām curious about this, too. In my experience (strictly folk/blues), alternate picking is not a thing, and I always use just 1 finger to play the notes of a phrase on a given string. I may shift fingers around to different strings, but itās always 1 finger playing on a given string.
I have struggled at times playing, say, a fast chromatic triplet on 1 string using just 1 finger and clearly things could be sped up with the help of two fingers playing the notes. I have never tried it, though, because it doesnāt quite feel right.
Iām not sure what my question is, perhaps this: is this āalternate pickingā something that folk/blues players incorporate into their playing? Is this a useful technique for folk/blues players?
I didnāt take that meaning from the original post ā¦ if Iām wrong I apologise. I though it was about a choice between a moving thumb plus two fingers and a moving thumb plus three fingers.
Alternating finger picking on a single string is a slightly different question to using two vs three fingers for the G, B and E strings when in general finger picking play.
As a 5 string banjo player as well as learning guitar, I really enjoy applying what I know about banjo picking to guitar. Rules Schmules. You do what works for you. For years, the teaching was: never play the same string twice. Then along comes this guy named Don Reno who developed a single string style of playing using two fingers on the same string. If it sounds good, youāre doing it right. Doesnāt really matter how.
Hmm, I just re-read the original post and now Iām not sure about my interpretation.
Anyway, Iād be happy to hear your opinion about my question, if you have one. Whether folk/blues style finger pickers incorporate the classical technique of playing fast lines on 1 string with two fingers.
In my opinion, yes, itās very useful. You can be much faster and smoother (which also requires practice, of course). I wouldnāt limit it to the classical guitar world. I use this kind of āalternate pickingā fingerstyle on a steel string acoustic all the time. (A good example is this recording of Is There Anybody Out There? ā thatās the thumb holding down the bass and alternate fingers (mostly i and m) doing the other single note stuff.)
Note that Iām not saying you always use it. There are songs or passages within songs where something else makes more sense and/or is more efficient. But itās the long-standing default approach in the classical world because it works very well. For me, itās the way to go.
| Context is key. The nature of the song says a lot. Dust In The Wind is mainly a fixed position but MY VERSION evolved to something that mixes a bunch of things.
) wants to enjoy a song that is well played and wonāt really care about which finger was assigned to a particular string.
