How do you make improvisation sound musical?

[Stuartw]

@BurnsRhythm

My apologies Stuart.

No apologies required.

[Stuartw]

@sclay

Whether you "physically’ cannot hear a chord change between say A major to D major, or if you can’t translate that change musically on the guitar.

I can probably hear the chord changes if I concentrated on the BT but tend to have the BT at quite a low volume so that I can hear what I am playing.

@sclay

Play a C Major chord. Then play the notes C-E-G in differing orders. That should kickstart a connection between the 2 in your ‘musical imagination’ as Justin puts it.

I can play a C major chord, But ( and this may be a daft question) why on C-E-G, when the chord has 5 notes?

[Stuartw]

@TheMadman_tobyjenner

Thought I’d knock up a quick suggestion which you can build on, just a little cluster of 5 notes which in this case make up the A7 chord.

Thanks. I’ll give it a go!

[Stuartw]

@Richard_close2u

Question - you are using the A minor pentatonc … are you using it to try to play something in the blues style? A 12-bar blues? Or are you using a backing track that is described as being in the key of A?
If the latter, that could be at the heart of the problem. Please let us know which backing track(s) - which exact ones and where to find them - you are using.

To answer your question it’s the latter as didn’t know that the A minor pentatonic was just used for 12 bar blues! I have been using this track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq8cApzOdy8 as a BT although, as I have told Shane, it plays in the background (at low volume) and at some times I forget it’s there!

@Richard_close2u

I have just come up with this. It is two successive 12-bar blues in the key of A minor.
I have over-emphasised (for demonstration purposes) playing a lick repeatedly across the full 12-bar sequence.

Thank you. I’ll give it a go!

To be honest this thread has left m feeling a bit depressed about this at the moment and will probably take some time off. I was quite happy in my ignorance!

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

Stiart those 5 notes are

C E G C E, you play C and E on the B and e strings. So those notes are doubled.

[Richard_close2u]

@Stuartw

I can play a C major chord, But ( and this may be a daft question) why on C-E-G, when the chord has 5 notes?

At this stage, because your connection and understanding of the links between scales, triads, chord notes and chords in a key is not secure I would urge you to play blind. Do not spend time trying to dissect what notes the chords have, what notes the scale has, and where they overlap. Just use your fingers and ears, not your intellectual mind.

@Stuartw

tend to have the BT at quite a low volume so that I can hear what I am playing.

Turn it up.
Let the backing track be heard - and it can inform the notes you play.

@Stuartw

didn’t know that the A minor pentatonic was just used for 12 bar blues!

It has wider uses and can be applied in more than a 12-bar blues context. But that is the most common and accessible place to start.

Your backing track is in the key of A minor. And I have provided resources also in the key of A minor.

If you want to use the licks that Justin teaches, you will need a 12-bar backing track in the key of A major, not A minor.

If following Shane’s advice, play very, very, very simple phrases (short ones, tiny licks that repeat, or just single notes, pairs of notes and little else that repeat) from the A minor pentatonic scale over a one-chord vamp of an A7 then a D7 then an E7 chord.

A7] https://youtu.be/nzbYs1pJU9o?si=mWgUXJA48j9bzg2B

A7] https://youtu.be/l_ZKOgZnvJo?si=-KR0NsTL0Rehr40I

D7] https://youtu.be/38IyuMZgQBI?si=_f7kxkkrtVCrLQGj

E7] https://youtu.be/qptV3pi-XfQ?si=1txPUOSNHXzA1Lmx

[Stuartw]

@Richard_close2u

Turn it up.
Let the backing track be heard - and it can inform the notes you play.

I’ll try this but conscious not to have it too oud as that’s what caused my hearing loss in the first place!

@Richard_close2u

If following Shane’s advice, play very, very, very simple phrases (short ones, tiny licks that repeat, or just single notes, pairs of notes and little else that repeat) from the A minor pentatonic scale over a one-chord vamp of an A7 then a D7 then an E7 chord.

OK, but, and this may be a daft question, why not one BT that cycles through the A7, D7 and E7 chord if I’m using the same A minor pentatonic scale. I’m essentially playing the same very simple phrases (short ones, tiny licks that repeat, or just single notes, pairs of notes and little else that repeat) for each chord?

[Stuartw]

@TheMadman_tobyjenner

C E G C E, you play C and E on the B and e strings. So those notes are doubled.

I’m guessing I should have known that!! I don’t know the names of the notes for the various chords as can’t recall Justin saying that we should know these as part of the beginners courses. Perhaps he should have. Would have saved me the embarrassment.

[RobDickinson]

@Stuartw

Any ideas how do you make improvisation sound musical?

Its more about timing and feel than what notes you are playing

You could play 1 note well and make it sound a lot more musical than randomly plucking all the notes of a scale

I would try the 1 finger/1 string technique first over a backing track or loop and make sure you have timing down well, then expand to working on motif’s etc. These dont have to be big 2,3 4 note repetitions you can then explore from and come back too

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

@Stuartw

Would have saved me the embarrassment.

No need to be embarrassed. I think it is covered in the early parts of PMT, its been a while.
To keep it simple each major chord contains just 3 notes Root Third and Fifth, when played on more than three strings, Open E Major for example, some of those three notes are duplicated but in a higher octave. Same with the Open minor chords Root Flat Third and Fifth,

Open E from E string to e string

E-B-E-G#-B-E

Six strings, 3 notes

Same applies to Barre chords. Try working that out for the other open chords.

Things get more complicated with extended chords 7th eyc but no need to go there yet.

[Stuartw]

@RobDickinson

I would try the 1 finger/1 string technique first over a backing track or loop and make sure you have timing down well,

Have been doing that, although assume that you mean the same 1 note repeating. Also being doing 2 notes/string.

@RobDickinson

hen expand to working on motif’s etc. These dont have to be big 2,3 4 note repetitions you can then explore from and come back too

Motif’s?? What do you mean by that?

[Stuartw]

@Stuartw

OK, but, and this may be a daft question, why not one BT that cycles through the A7, D7 and E7 chord if I’m using the same A minor pentatonic scale. I’m essentially playing the same very simple phrases (short ones, tiny licks that repeat, or just single notes, pairs of notes and little else that repeat) for each chord?

As an add on to this if I was to play simple phrases over a one-chord vamp is there particular strings/notes that I should use for each of the A7, D7 and E7 chords. It’s all still a mystery to me as the implication is the each of the A7, D7 and E7 BT chords have certain notes to use when improvising!

[DavidP]

@Stuartw Stuart, thought I’d share this with you, maybe as an example of what some folk have been suggesting. And explain it in my words whyich may help: One Chord Vamps - #19 by DavidP And maybe you want to try record something top share in that challenge, get some feedback.

I was improvising over a single chord viz Am, and the strumming patters were the same start to finish.

The notes that make up an Am chord are A C E. I know it has been suggested to just use your ears but I think knowing and making use of just a little bit of chord theory can be helpful.

My improv was mostly in minor pentatonic position 1, which is what Justin teaches first. Before improvising I’d suggest being comfortable with that first minor pentatonic pattern. Work on playing it ascending and descending.

Then people have spoken about ‘targetting chord tones’. What that simply means is that you should start and finish on one of the notes that make up the chord ie an A C or E when you play a few notes. So useful to know where those notes are on the neck in the A minor pentatonic position 1. Just try playing a few notes from the scale and then pause, trying to start and finish on the A C or E. For example you could start playing quarter notes on the beat. Just try A C D C A on the D and G strings. Let the second A ring out for a full count of 4 and repeat. It is not the most creative but should sound musical.

Hope that makes some sense, not adding confusion. Just my way of thinking about it.

[Stuartw]

@DavidP

Stuart, thought I’d share this with you, maybe as an example of what some folk have been suggesting.

Thanks or your help with this.

@DavidP

My improv was mostly in minor pentatonic position 1, which is what Justin teaches first. Before improvising I’d suggest being comfortable with that first minor pentatonic pattern. Work on playing it ascending and descending.

I’m OK with the A minor pentatonic .

@DavidP

What that simply means is that you should start and finish on one of the notes that make up the chord ie an A C or E when you play a few notes. So useful to know where those notes are on the neck in the A minor pentatonic position 1. Just try playing a few notes from the scale and then pause, trying to start and finish on the A C or E. For example you could start playing quarter notes on the beat. Just try A C D C A on the D and G strings. Let the second A ring out for a full count of 4 and repeat. It is not the most creative but should sound musical.

OK that makes sense and can see what you are tying to do with A C D C A on the D and G strings.

@DavidP

Hope that makes some sense, not adding confusion.

It helps but also adds some additional confusion based your comments about "The notes that make up an Am chord are A C E. ". I get this but based on this @Richard_close2u response above this adds the confusion.

@Richard_close2u

play very, very, very simple phrases (short ones, tiny licks that repeat, or just single notes, pairs of notes and little else that repeat) from the A minor pentatonic scale over a one-chord vamp of an A7 then a D7 then an E7 chord

As far as I know the notes of the chords are:
A7 - A, C# and E.
D7 - D, F# and A
E7 - E, G# and B.

How does this work as not all the notes from A7, D7 and E 7 are in the A minor pentatonic scale?

No wonder I’m not getting this one chord vamp thing or even improvising in general. I didn’t realise it would be that difficult.

[Jozsef]

@Stuartw

@Richard_close2u

play very, very, very simple phrases (short ones, tiny licks that repeat, or just single notes, pairs of notes and little else that repeat) from the A minor pentatonic scale over a one-chord vamp of an A7 then a D7 then an E7 chord

As far as I know the notes of the chords are:
A7 - A, C# and E.
D7 - D, F# and A
E7 - E, G# and B.

How does this work as not all the notes from A7, D7 and E 7 are in the A minor pentatonic scale?

No wonder I’m not getting this one chord vamp thing or even improvising in general. I didn’t realise it would be that difficult.

Dominant seventh chords (“7” chords for short) are 4-note chords that have the flat seventh (b7) degree of the major scale in them. Those 3 chords have the following notes:

A7: A, C#, E (so far an A major chord) and G (one tone below the root note - remember, it’s a b7)
D7: D, F#, A, C
E7: E, G#, B, D

You are right that not all of those notes are in the A minor pentatonic scale (A, C, D, E, G). However, all 5 notes of the A minor pentatonic scale can be found in those 3 chords (see them highlighted). Therefore, playing the notes of this scale will sound good over those chords as you are sure to play a note that they contain.

Footnote (not necessary for the exercise above): write out the diatonic triads of a given key, e.g. C major, and add the next third to them (from the same key where the triads come from). The 4th note added then needs to be examined in relation to the root note of the triad. You will find that the V chord (and only that one) becomes a dominant 7th chord. See below:

C: C E G becomes C E G B - Cmaj7 (major triad + seventh relative to key of C)
Dm: D F A becomes D F A C - Dmin7 (minor triad + flat seventh relative to key of D)
Em: E G B becomes E G B D - Emin7 (minor triad + flat seventh relative to key of E)
F: F A C becomes F A C E - Fmaj7 (major triad + seventh relative to key of F)
G: G B D becomes G B D F - G7 (major triad + flat seventh relative to key of G)
Am: A C E becomes A C E G - Amin7 (minor triad + flat seventh relative to key of A)
Bdim: B D F becomes B D F A - Bmin7b5 (diminished triad + flat seventh relative to key of B)

All these extended chords are diatonic to the key of C major because they contain only natural notes.

[RobDickinson]

@Stuartw

Motif’s?? What do you mean by that?

A repeating phrase, dosnt have to be long or complicated , or even over used, but endless random notes dont work

[DavidP]

@Stuartw

It helps but also adds some additional confusion based your comments about "The notes that make up an Am chord are A C E. ". I get this but based on this @Richard_close2u response above this adds the confusion.

As I recall the conversation above developed from talk about minor pentatonic scale and playing over 12 bar blues. So it was taking steps up in what is involved from teh simplest (I think) which is the one chord vamp.

As I recall you have not delved into music theory. I forget if you have done the first few free lessons of Justin’s Practical Music Theory.

So with that in mind, I shan’t go into music theory but will just say that both A, A7, Am are chords with the root note being A. They are different chords, so made up of different notes.

My suggestion is to forget about 12 bar blues played with A7, D7, E7 for now.

Keep it as simple as possible ie Am and use the A minor pentatonic. Just accept that the notes that make up the Am chord are A C E. Look at a notes-on-the-neck diagram and see what the notes are in the A minor pentatonic. Highlight where the A C E notes are.

I don’t know if you can record yourself. If you can maybe just do so playing an Am chord over a metronome set in 4/4 time at say 80 BPM. Just a simple pattern, even just 4 down strums on the beat.

Then play patterns of 5 notes on the beat like this 1 2 3 4 A C D C A 2 3 4 A C D C A 2 3 4.

Forget about everything else you’ve read, banish all the questions from your mind that introduce additional theory etc.

Just start with that. See how it sounds and feels.

[Richard_close2u]

@Stuartw

daily improv. sessions … using the A minor pentatonic … scale but it still sounds to me like random notes… I usually play to a backing track.

GOOD. That sounds like the way to go.

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@sclay

Practice improvising over a one chord vamp.

This can work. Toby shared a backing, I shared four.

@Stuartw

I’ll give it a go!

Did you give it a go?
If yes, how was it?

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@Stuartw

Are you sating I need to know the notes I am playing when, say, using the A minor pentatonic scale?

@Stuartw

Why do I need to know the chords (or tones) I use as a BT?

FORGET CHORD TONES. DO NOT THINK ABOUT IT AT ALL.
That sort of path at the moment will prevent you from being able to play.
JUST PLAY.
Play a BT (one chord or 3-chord 12-bar blues in A. Play short phrases using A minor pentatonic. D, G, B & E strings only. Frets 5-7, 5-7, 5-8, 5-8. Just eight notes to use.

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@Stuartw

Motif’s?? What do you mean by that?

The example I created above is an example of motifs. The shape, the rhythm, the feel, the groove of them is the same. Slide to a first note, it lasts half a bar. Play two more notes that last a quarter beat. Variation only comes occasionally and is achieved by sliding to a different first note and / or playing two different notes after.

Try to play in a similar way. 3, 4 or 5 notes. Not as scale notes, starting low pitch and ascending. Not starting high pitch and simply descending. Take the notes for walk up, down, back a bit. Hold one note longer, or shorter so you have some varying rhythm - again making it sound that it is not scale practice with evenly spaced notes.

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@Stuartw

why not one BT that cycles through the A7, D7 and E7 chord if I’m using the same A minor pentatonic scale.

Yes. Do that. Do exactly that.

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@Stuartw

It helps but also adds some additional confusion based your comments about "The notes that make up an Am chord are A C E. ". I get this but based on this @Richard_close2u response above this adds the confusion.

Forget it about then. You do not want confusion adding to confusion.
KEEP IT SIMPLE.

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@Stuartw

How does this work as not all the notes from A7, D7 and E 7 are in the A minor pentatonic scale?

You are correct to notice a mis-match between the minor pentatonic scale notes and the chord notes. FORGET ABOUT CHORD TONES.

Play the minor pentatonic and just put to one side any notion of playing the chord changes and targeting chord tones. It is an advanced concept and you need simplicity at this stage.

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@RobDickinson

A repeating phrase, dosnt have to be long or complicated , or even over used, but endless random notes dont work

YES YES YES.

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All the advice and examples have been provided to help you. But I recommend you strip it back to the bare essentials.

1] A minor pentatonic with one-chord backing tracks of A7, D7, E7

2] A minor pentatonic with 12-bar blues backing tracks in A major using A7, D7 and E7 only.

A7] https://youtu.be/nzbYs1pJU9o?si=mWgUXJA48j9bzg2B

A7] https://youtu.be/l_ZKOgZnvJo?si=-KR0NsTL0Rehr40I

A7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzbYs1pJU9o

D7] https://youtu.be/38IyuMZgQBI?si=_f7kxkkrtVCrLQGj

E7] https://youtu.be/qptV3pi-XfQ?si=1txPUOSNHXzA1Lmx

Avoid jazzed up backing tracks that make use of more fancy chords. Keep it simple.

[sticktothemuse]

Shane, thanks again for this sage advice, definitely a turning point on my musical journey!

Quick question for you. I’m finishing grade 3 in Justin’s course and the module about playing in key. He teaches playing all the notes in the scale, you recommend playing the three notes of the triad. They both sound great. Any advantage of doing one over the other?

Thanks
Roch

[sclay]

Hey Roch,

They do both sound good.
One is key-based playing; the other, chord-based playing. The latter is harder to do.
In reality, you will often use a combination of both in any one piece.

The way I currently look at; chord based playing on/near the chord changes ( via triads, arpeggios, chord-tone targeting etc), and key/scale notes surrounding to create movement from one chord to the next.

Cheers, Shane