@Libitina - My acoustic has a 1 3/4 inch nut.
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Judi @judi, thank you for starting this thread, and Stacy @artax_2, thank you for suggesting it.
Thereās so much Iād like to contribute to the discussion, especially after so many others have added the great stuff that they have, but it would be a monster post for me to do it all at once, so Iāll do it in pieces over time.
I wouldnāt necessarily have said I have small hands and that that is the source of my challenges, but it probably is a factor. Iām about 167cm (5ā6") in height, and I expect my hands are proportionately sized.
I find some of the ways we measure things to be puzzlingly unhelpful as compared to the way we actually use them. I can very comfortably span my hand from pinky to thumb at 20cm (8") and stretch to 21.5cm (8.5"). But when do we use our hands that way while playing guitar? It seems to me that the distance between the tips of the index finger and pinky is more relevant, no? With straightened fingers, thatās 15-16cm (5.9-6.3") for me. Even more relevant, Iād think it would be the index-pinky-tip distance with our fingers curled more like if we were fretting strings on a guitar. For me, completely curled, thatās only about 6cm (2.4") or 8cm (3.1") with discomfort. With my fingers in a āclaw-likeā posture, probably closer to a fretting position, I can get ~7.7cm (3") to ~9cm (3.5) uncomfortably.
A huge part of my challenge is that my pinky angles sharply toward my ring finger. Much but not all of that angle is happening at its base knuckle, i.e. my palm knuckles never align in a plane, so the pinkyās knuckle tilts forward and creates a ācuppingā of my palm at that edge. This effect increases when I curl my fingers. I work a lot on stretching, and that does help, but I doubt Iāll ever get this to become completely flat.
Rogier @roger_holland, Iāve been doing those stretching exercises and others for months and will continue, but eventually weāre limited by our anatomy. (Then we have to find ways to do the most we can with what we have.)
Itās obvious then (or it should be) that choosing a guitar that āfitsā you is imperative. Thatās nearly impossible for a true beginner, but donāt they say that we shouldnāt expect our first guitar to be our āforever guitar?ā I live in a fairly small town with two very small shops that sell guitars. Even if I played all of their guitars, I wouldnāt have a very good sample of whatās available in the larger world.
When we evaluate the size of a guitarās neck, here again I wonder if our measuring method is sufficient. I see neck with at nut/body, neck depth at 1/2 fret and 12-1/2 fret, and a āneck shape.ā I wonder if the circumference at different frets would be more meaningful; after all, we need to āget our hands aroundā the neck, so including that total distance might be more helpful.
I gambled and bought a PRS SE DGT (online), knowing that I really didnāt know what I was doing. I like the guitar very much, but I donāt know (after 8 months) whether it fits me well or whether it doesnāt. These are its parameters:
Neck Width at Nut: 42.06cm (1 21/32")
Neck width at Body: 56.337cm (2 7/32")
Neck Depth at 1/2 Fret: 21.41cm (27/32")
Neck Depth at 12 1/2 Fret: 24.20cm (61/64")
Is that too large given my left handās size and range? Would I have an easier time with another guitar? I canāt say I have any idea. Itās summer, so garden and backpacking are dominating my time. I try to squeeze in 30 to 60 minutes of playing every day, but I canāt fit in a trip to a guitar store to try smaller necks. That will have to wait until autumn. If anyone here has opinions about whether my guitar is/isnāt right for me and/or what other guitars (electric or acoustic) might be better, I welcome the feedback.
There are so many other things I want to address hereā¦ Classical position. I really like it, but I havenāt figured out how to do it and also sit comfortably. Where do my legs go and so on. Maybe I need a different seat. As @judi mentioned, standing is the best position for me in every way - except for feet and legs getting tired during longer sessions.
Wrist angles. The F chord is the worst, because itās a compound angle. At the far (low) end of the neck, my forearm is angling away from my body to the left more than it will anywhere else on the neck. Add the reach across the fretboard, and my wrist is now signicantly tilted on 2 different axes - and it very much does not like that. Imagine the wrist bent as in the photo from @DarrellW above, but adding the angle toward the headstock, too. If only the neck could be shaped in an arcā¦ I havenāt fully explored experimenting with my elbow position to try to reduce the impact on my wrist, so Iām hopeful that this may lead me to something that works better. Any other bar chord is easier than F; a G major bar chord is 10 times easier. Itās that compound angle down at the nut that gets me. I broke my left wrist very severely at age 18, and I have to think that limits both its range of motion and comfort.
Joshua @Jamolay, I appreciate you bringing āharaā into the discussion. That concept is new to me, but it seems like it fits well with what I was trying to get at in another thread here. In a matter of a few months, it has become very apparent that - at least for me - the tactile/mindfulness pieces of this practice are not only very interesting but essential to my improvement in all facets of playing. I have no way of knowing what other people do, but I suspect that @sclay was right when he said in another thread that 99.x% of us are probably applying more force than is necessary. After hand stretches, the first thing I do in my practice is a āminimum touchā exercise that I got from Tomo Fujita. When I do it, I also incorporate Justinās minimum movement.
Stacy @artax_2, I do quite a bit of āsingle-noteā playing - arpeggios and simple songs - and I do find that I donāt have these kinds of challenges with those, so I do think itās primarily about chords. That makes sense to me, because weāre asking many or all of our fingers to do their parts at the same time, and thatās what makes it difficult.
Thatās already too much, so Iāll save my other pieces for a future post.
Another way to look at this is not āmore force than necessaryā but force applied the wrong way. If I am using poor mechanics to apply a force, it is hard and I risk being hurt. If I apply the same force correctly, it is easier to do and easier on my body.
I feel the biggest risk is us new players sorting out how to use our bodies to play this contraption. We slowly figure out better ways to apply force and position ourselves holding the guitar or placing our fingers. But like any learned thing, it takes time and practice. In the meantime we are at risk, so need to be attentive to overuse and strain.
I donāt really know much at all about martial arts and the āharaā concept. I learned about it a lifetime ago studying Shiatsu massage in Boulder Colorado. Pressure to meridian points applied with intent from the center is stronger, steadier, easier and more meditative and therefore healing. It was noticeable to practice this, and pretty dang amazing. I kind of wish I had thought more about this a couple of years ago.
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In reading all these posts Iām beginning to wonder if this is purely our own minds playing tricks.
As @Jamolay said, he prefers a wide neck guitar but has smaller span than I do. 7.5 vs 8.0 yet, I find the reach of my little finger on the A min pentatonic a stretch that is just about OK with a good twist up on my wrist.
So just how much of this is just us, so to speak. Interesting read for sure.
I have relatively short fingers and (this may be heresy here) but I find that if I canāt reach something by stretch I just move my hand. For example, there is a passage in Justinās tutorial of Little Wing where he reaches a note by stretch whereas I slide up to that note moving the whole hand. Similarly in the Am pentatonic to get the note with my pinky on the low E I find I move my hand. Itās not something Iām conscious of just how I developed. You have to be quick with your hand but that comes with experience.
There is one other issue in that the neck contributes to the tone so what you gain in playability you lose in tone with a skinny neck. I favour 50ās spec electrics that tend to have necks like baseball bats.
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I think Peter brings up a good point. I remember struggling early on because my fingers seemed unable to do what Justinās fingers can on the guitar.
Much of this is years of practice and use, very little is probably anatomy, although there will be differences between very different hand sizes, of course.
The point is, there are no rigid rules. You find a way to play using what you have. Over time, some stretch and coordination will improve your ability, but if it is hard to do one way, or the way someone else does it, find a different way.
We can alter fingerings and most importantly, we can CHANGE THE MUSIC.
Play a chord variation you can actually play. Play in a different part of the fretboard. Change the key. Whatever works for you is fine as long as the result sounds good. Good does not mean identical to as presented.
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While I definitely agree that there are ways around the issues weāre discussing here, I perceive that most of them are advanced. I canāt yet simply find another way to play a chord, Iām doing good to play a clear chord in the regular shape, let alone explore where to find another configuration of the one Iām just learning. I donāt have the skill yet to go note hunting. Or the desire, to be honest. I believe you when you say itās years of experience that leads to this ability.
There is a frustrating thing that I see happening every day over on the guitar reddits, where advanced players seem to have forgotten what it was like to be a beginner. Their advice is always a well-intended āpractice moreā without any actual advice on what that could look like. I understand most beginners need an in-person teacher. But alas, none of us would be on Justin Guitar if we all did that. Iām not saying this is happening in this community, in fact I usually see the opposite.
But I will say, to small handed beginners, the suggestion to āfind a wayā and ājust change the musicā leaves us (at least me) perplexed for what do to. 90% of the fretboard is still a mystery to me. 75% of what ive learned about guitar in 2 years doing Justinās course is conceptual because the application of even baby technique is hard. Eventually, I may be able to make my own version of things, but in the meantime, Iām just trying not to hurt myself.
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I apologize, I didnāt mean you should be able to do any of these things now, I certainly canāt change a song yet, at all. I try to finger chords in the way I can and occasionally use a partial or āminiā chord and futz around until I feel ok about it.
My point was not to feel discouraged because there are many ways to solve problems and we will get there.
Still, we start from the beginning and have to work within our current physical and mental abilities, and as you say, without getting hurt. I do know I have had to abandon some pieces I tried to learn, having to admit to myself that I donāt have the capability to play themā¦yet.
No need to apologize! This is all great, informative, and interesting discussion. The exact thing weāre needing on this topic.
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Stacy could you give us more specific things you are struggling with?
Youāve mentioned the minor pentatonic scale having trouble reaching the E string with your pinky. Try playing it this way. Start with you ring finger on the note A the play the note C on the A string with youāre index finger then the note D with you ring finger and the slide up to the note E then play the rest of the scall the usual way.
This is a legitimate way to play the scale, Eric Clapton plays it this way and itās how I first learnt it in the 70s.
If I didnāt explain this clear enough let me know and Iāll try and explain it better.
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This is one of those posts that I wish I had an option to ālikeā more than just +1. Several great points here.
I do believe that time and experience will ultimately get us to where these things become routine and comfortable. I have to believe that. But weāre at a stage where we can see that something(s) needs to change, weāre not exactly sure what that is, and we have a limited toolbox for making changes. One thing I do is to avoid reddit.
As Peter @rorystrat mentioned, I frequently have to shift my hand slightly to reach notes, the low C on the Am pentatonic being a great example. Rick @stitch, your alternate pattern is a fine suggestion. I recently stumbled across ādiagonalā (3+2) pentatonic scales and have really been enjoying those. In addition to being more comfortable, I feel like theyāre giving me a lot more exposure to the fretboard and building agility and dexterity in ways that the boxes donāt. But, as Stacy said, if weāre primarily following Justinās system (which is excellent), weāre mostly left either to ājust keep trying.ā
Iāve been working hard to play āDock of the Bayā for at least a couple of months. Itās mostly very solid, except for where the F chord comes in. There, I have to jump from G to F, then to D. I know I could use an alternate F chord, but Iād like to use this song as my platform for improving the full F. The challenge in going from G to F (in time) is mostly the usual beginner stuff: landing all the fingers in the right places with the right force, but thereās also a huge element of wrist position to prevent injury. But then, going from F to Dā¦ That involves a 90-degree rotation of the wrist and movement of the hand from the lowest strings to the highest. That trio ends up being pretty rough on my wrist after a few rounds.
Hereās the thing about thumb placement and orientation for me: Having my thumb near the middle of the neck and pointed āupwardā (perpendicular to the neck) causes the line of palm knuckles of my fingers to angle away from the neck so that the index palm knuckle is closest and the pinky knuckle is farthest. This gives my shortest finger the longest distance to reach, and the only way I can do it is to crank my wrist in such a way to bring that side of my hand up near the neck. But if I point my thumb more toward the headstock, my hand rotates enough to realign the palm knuckles so theyāre parallel to the neck. Alternatively, (in some situations) bringing my thumb up toward the top of the neck (by the low E string) moves my whole hand closer to the neck, accomplishing the same thing for the pinky. Iām slowly finding places to incorporate one or the other of these ātechniquesā as needed.
Iāve seen Richard @Richard_close2u say that pointing the thumb toward the headstock is ābad form,ā and Iāll take his word for it. At the same time, Iām not planning to enter any āgood formā contests, so Iām more interested in knowing how doing it will inhibit my progress. I donāt do it at all times or even most of the time, but there are reaches that I find very difficult or even painful without it.
Finally (for this post), I wonder if what Joshua @Jamolay is saying about the wider neck being more comfortable could be due to what I just said above about the pinkyās palm knuckle being too far from the neck when my thumb is near the middle. Could a wider neck (paradoxically) be the solution? Something to explore in the mythical guitar shop.
I donāt subscribe to this idea either. My thumb moves all over the back of the neck from hanging over the top to pointing at the headstock to planted below the middle of the neck. Sometimes you just gotta do what works.
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Amen.
If it were the solution, there wouldnāt be so many skinny chickān necked guitars. There are trade offs. No thumb over option for me. Also, like longer scales, wider necks increase some types of stretches.
On my steel string, I am learning a B7b9 which I like best with the root on 7th fret 6 th string. But what a stretch for me! Ring finger 6 string 7th, little on 4th string 7th, middle on 3rd string 5th and index 2nd string 4th. Thank goodness it starts at the 7th fret. I couldnāt do this at all on my classical, simply not an option since the nut is 5mm wider and the scale is 5/8ā longer. If I tried on a 44 mm or 42 mm nut, it would be easier still.
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I do this too. One problem I have with my thumb is forgetting to move it.
How you point your thumb and where it is behind the neck definitely influences where the fingers can get to. I tend to leave the thumb behind at the last fingering position while I try and screw my other fingers into place. Not a good habit. Once I notice and place my thumb better, my odds increase substantially.
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To your point about sitting positionā¦ I tried classical too and my strumming arm hates it. I simply donāt put the guitar in the center of my seated position. However, tilting the neck upā¦my fretting arm and hand benefits from that. It took months to get used to it though. MONTHS. I have to keep all guitars with straps on them when sitting down. And I still sometimes find one of my electrics suffers from neck dive, the one with locking tuners. And I no longer leave my string tuner clipped on the headstock all the time. I donāt need the extra tiny bit of weight on the headstock.
I will say, the forum discussed awhile back another similar topic that I grappled with - sitting position, as it relates to wrist position and overall comfort. I hypothesized that what I call the āmaleā sitting position (sitting naturally with knees wide apart as opposed to a lady position of knees together or crossed) resulted in the guitar being placed further to the right of our body center, bringing the fretting arm closer into the body, giving better positioning for the fretting hand. Itās subtle but I think āmanspreadingā make a difference, especially compared to petite ladies.
While there are plenty of exceptions where petite women sit with the guitar on their crossed knees with no hindrance whatsoever, I still feel like bringing my right knee to point out to the right does something. It orients the guitar face out rightwards a little and the fretboard likewise, moving it outward a little in front of my body, seems to be a good angle for my wrist and arm to be straighter on the horizontal plane during my tough chords and note picking.
I think Justin does this too but heās sitting angled so that the guitar is facing th camera straight on, instead of himself. It didnāt dawn on me early on that that was going on. Mimicking Justin has gotten me in some trouble with sitting and guitar positioning, when I wasnāt playing close enough attention.
ETA- a fantastic rock guitarist that always practices in classical position is John 5. Heās inspiring, in my opinion, for getting comfy with that position. And he plays with his guitar higher on the body than a lot of others.
One has to assume that when a question is put like the OP makes , they might be expecting a more experienced player to respond.
And no I donāt remember what it was like to be a ābeginnerā. I started when I was 14, many years ago now, when I was just a kid and not a fully formed adult human being. My fingers did what I told them to do and have done ever since. You are making a big assumption that every ābeginnerā goes through the same journey and suffers the same problems but back then the learning process was completely different.
My comment about tone may have been OTT but I think it is relevant. I choose to play 50ās spec guitars because that is the sound I want to make. Thatās whatās important to me and has always been my objective. There may be guitars that are easier to play but I am not prepared to sacrifice tone for playability. So I compromise on playability, persevere with harder to play necks and find work-arounds like lifting my hand. I too have trouble reaching the low E with my pinky and try to avoid it if and when I can.
This thread has really opened a can of worms for me - in a good way, I think.
There are so many contributing factors that we have to optimize in combination: guitar specs, guitar position, posture, strap, techniqueā¦ Like any complex system, changing one of these may well change the others. How do we know which to tackle first, and how do we know when that one is right and move on to the next one? Itās likely even more difficult for a beginner who isnāt really sure what to look for.
After a couple of months of working with the F barre chord, I think itās telling me that I need to make changes. Yes, I can play it well enough, and I can change between it and open chords pretty consistently at around 70bpm (still not song speed), but my wrist is too bent for comfort. And nothing else is like that for me, because the F chord is not only the farthest thing angled to my left but also requires that I wrap my fingers all the way around the neck. Itās the angle in two directions that is testing my tendons.
Itās much, much better if I stand (possibly ideal-ish), which tells me that the way Iām holding the guitar while sitting is problematic. Iāve read more than one thread here about chairs and posture, all full of good ideas, but I havenāt yet found the answer for me. If the waist of my guitar is on my right thigh, then my right shoulder is very uncomfortable with my arm that far to the right. Classical position might be great, except that it seems to require my legs to be at different heights, and I havenāt found a way to make that comfortable. So I keep exploring.
Is an ergonomic guitar like a Strandberg the way to go? Iām not convinced.
All of this to say that thereās a pretty wide spectrum of possible causes and solutions to these challenges, and changes to one probably affects another significantly.
What Iāve begun doing is this: Iāve appointed the F barre chord to be my measuring stick. I stand, form an F chord in the most comfortable way possible. I slowly sit and attempt to keep that same grip. At the very least, itās showing me what parts of my seated posture are preventing me from doing the same while sitting. Most of it is about angles of the guitar shifting: the neck angling forward away from my body and the neck rotating so that the fretboard is angling somewhat upward - both because the guitar is resting more on my right hip than on top of my thigh.
Now Iām trying to figure out what change(s) to make to try to fix it. It feels like everything is an experiment, and it probably is.
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Absolutely, butā¦ I didnāt take what Stacy said to mean that they literally remember their experience of learning to play guitar, more that they have personal experience of being in the early stages of learning to do anything, i.e. they have some basic empathy. Even if one does take it fully literally, ābe patient,ā ākeep practicing,ā and āchange it to suit yourselfā arenāt especially thoughtful responses when someone is saying that theyāre working hard and trying not to injure themselves. But, as I mentioned before, I think reddit can be a pretty hostile place, so I donāt go there for advice.
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So, hereās a question. How many people position the guitar such that the instrument/neck is essentially vertical? Looking down, you only can see the dots on the side of the neck. Or slanted, such that you can see the frets and your finger placement? I think this decision impacts positioning of the hand. Havenāt seen much discussion about this.