Bob @grabhorn, Ah yes, the experimentation continues. I think I’ve mentioned somewhere (this thread? another?) that, like you, I’ve been standing to play much more lately. But sometimes I just want or need to sit!
Yup. Here’s what has helped me, but of course each solution is very personal. (fwiw, I’m 5’3" tall.) I got a guitar stool like you often see at the guitar store - it’s about 2 feet high and has a twisty seat. I can’t reach the floor and have my thigh parallel to the floor, so I use a classical adjustable foot stand under my left foot to make that thigh parallel to the floor, and put the right foot on the floor (thigh slopes down). I then hold the guitar in a sort of modified classical position - neck isn’t angled up quite as much as classical though. As I said, this probably won’t be the solution for you, but maybe it will spark an idea! Also, because this is a twisty journey we’re on, I reserve the right to change my mind about how well this works for me next week.
I’ve read your posts and can honestly say I’ve personally felt, thought, and experienced all the same things, and have been experiencing them for most of my journey so far. The most surprising thing about learning guitar for me has been the fact that after two years I still can’t find the most comfortable way to sit, stand, hold, or handle the instrument. It’s wild. I thought that’d be the last thing I’d struggle with.
I struggle with this a lot. I don’t doubt it’s one of the sources of my wrist bend. I just have to be able to see what I’m doing. Holding the instrument very vertical while craning over it to see it is murder on my upper back, shoulders, and neck and after I’ve slouched my back into a curve at a computer for 10 hours at work, I cannot do it at home during leisure hours. I have to lean back in a chair a little bit and tilt the guitar slightly instead. And when I stand up to play, it’s not much better - I have a belly pooch that pushes the bottom of the guitar out to a slight tilt. Grr!
I totally get where you’re coming from. It’s so important to find a comfortable position that works for you. Maybe try experimenting with different chair heights or using a strap to adjust the guitar’s position when sitting.
I have commented on the classical position in several threads. It works for me, but I definitely took more than 2 years to figure it out and it is still a work in progress.
Important factors in sitting with the guitar for me are shoulder stresses primarily, wrist stress second and then seated comfort.
Being able to sit on a comfortable padded seat with both feet flat and thighs parallel to the floor was essential for me to hold the guitar securely and not suffer back pain. This requires a seat that with my weight compressing the cushion is about 15-16” tall. Shorter than standard for my short legs and takes some searching.
Raising one leg on a footstool or book pile is bad for the back, so that wasn’t an option and if I cross my legs for more than a few minutes they go numb and hurt.
I use a lift for the guitar. There are zillions of them. I have one that even works for an electric guitar. Personally, I like Woodside guitar lifts, after trying too many. They even have one that may be narrow enough for electrics, at least hollow body styles.
You can test out this type of position without buying a lift. I used a tightly rolled up sheet with a wrap of rubbery cloth over it and a rubber band for a while figuring all this out. Goes on the left thigh and the waist of the guitar.
I let the guitar sit pretty low between my legs and the sound hole is pretty centered over my belly. This brings the neck where there is no large movements needed at the shoulder. Head of guitar about jaw height and 6”-8” left of my head.
The guitar sits with the lift and lower bout on the close side of the mid thigh and the top curve of the upper bout about mid sternum or a little higher. I can’t quite rest my chin in it. This creates a slight lean back if I am sitting straight, and allows me to wrap my right arm around the body so there is no strain on my right shoulder and no pressure of the edge on my forearm. I don’t always get this right, though. It also gives a subtle angle so I can see the fretboard if needed, which still is a whole lot, apparently.
If I sit with good posture, I can let go of the guitar and it doesn’t move. I can sit like this for hours, which unfortunately doesn’t happen often.
I play an 00 size steel string and a classical standard (similar in size). They are both 12 feet necks, so a couple of inches shorter than a 14 fret neck. This also is helpful for the shoulders. I am 5’ 6” tall with short legs and relatively longer torso. Just a little old man belly, not enough to need accommodation for the guitar.
I bought a too expensive extra short drum throne, which is my primary seat. I can also fortunately sit at the edge of a couch or patio set pretty well, height wise. Slouching back does not work for me at all.
1-2 years ago, I was struggling with this to such a degree that I wasn’t sure I was enjoying playing guitar. I was frustrated and uncomfortable. I do blame the F cord for part of that, but it also set me on a path to figure out what I needed and I am so glad I did. The only downside is I prefer a fairly particular position for play. If I am out and pick up a guitar in a store or friend’s house I need to adapt. This usually involves using something to lift my left foot up, or a couch pillow on the thigh. Manageable for a short time.
I forgot to mention that I hate, hate, hate straps. Hurts my neck to even look at one.
I was intrigued by this discussion about small hands. This is something I have heard guitar players talking about ever since I started playing. To date everyone I have met talking about their small hands have hands which turn out to be significantly bigger than mine. So now I was curious to check some of the measurements in this post and sure enough it seems I win or is it loose again. Here is what I measure using comparison with some others who have posted. And after this somewhat pointless numerical comparison I will share my thoughts on this issue.
Darellw & Jamolay both mention small hand span of 7.5 inches . Assuming the span measurement is thumb tip to pinky tip with palm facing up then mine is 6.25 to 6.5 inches.
artax_2 I am well shorter or same as you on most measurements , except span where I am significantly shorter by 1 inch on both measurements you give. Your measurement of 2.5 inches in the position as if holding the neck does sound challenging this is more like 4 inches in my case. This is something I did work at with stretching excercise as I thought this could perhaps be improved but not size of fingers which is clearly fixed. This maybe explains this span on my left is a bit bigger than my right hand.
judi your span is also more than an 1 inch more than mine
grabhorn your span reaches are just stuff of dreams for me apart from your curled measurements which sound challenging.
Small hand sizes give several challenges to us guitarist. Out of all these the number one issue for me is when palm is closed in fretting piston my middle & index finger curl to the point of almost touching.
I used to get frustrated with the limitations of my hand size especially when I heard others mention similar frustrations with hand sizes which I could only dream about having. Getting frustrated about being restricted in my playing with impossible chord stretches , impossible thumb over playing, even struggles to cleanly fret an open position D chord because of the gap between middle and index finger. This made me avoid all sort songs and styles because of my limitations. I did gravitate to shorter scale length neck guitars like 24.75 to 25 inch rather than the common 25.5 inch. Although recently I have started to even enjoy playing a my Strat ( 25.5) after years of avoiding it for this reason.
So what does this all mean to me as a guitarist. Well first and most important was I decided I was not going to be deterred from enjoying playing as much as I could within my limitations. I have to say Justin’s teaching method helped encourage me also. He often mentions during lessons that alternative fingerings and chords were fine to use when other teachers only talked about impossible for me chord voicings and techniques.This was very helpful for my motivation.
I would say decide if you really want to play guitar , then find peace with the hands you have and try to find solutions, some of which have been mentioned. Smaller guitar bodies, shorter scale, lighter string gauges, make sure the action is not too high all things to consider I would say. Look for solutions in the style of music you want to play. I know that playing Tommy Emmanuel style arrangements with my hand size is not going to happen. But I play many other styles, acoustic and electric and over time as my knowledge , ear training and technique have improved I have found work arounds for things which would have stopped me dead only a couple of years ago.
As a guitar player you are going to meet many obstacles along the road of progress. I am by no means a great guitarist but I have reached a point that I would not have thought possible even just a couple of years ago. I now do Open Mics , several on the Justin Community, and have been to several Justin workshops and feel at home in them, even just last week in Italy ( I am from Scotland) I was playing and singing with a band and other students.
In summary I empathise will all you guitarist that have small hand challenges , I really do. But the decision to continue or not is in your own hands , pun intended
I wish you all the best, if anyone has specific questions you can drop me a PM. Don’t be deterred too easily in your guitar journey you will probably get further than you think . Even with my small hand measurements I am able to enjoy guitar more than I thought possible many times in the past.
I have very similar measures to you
I call them my small fat farmer fingers.
Yes, thumb over neck I can just forget about and some other things also, like barre chords and using the pinky on third fret from the barre. Though in general I feel I manage the barre chords pretty well.
My middle and ring finger wants to stick together and it takes some effort to find a way around that.
It was very hard at start, but I manage to find ways around it and avoid having desire to play something that is physically impossible. We have what we have and it is as it is. So it’s just getting the best out of it.
My stretch on the plucking hand is bigger, almost 1 inch (2,5 cm), measured from index to pinky. Actually considered getting left hand guitar, but discarded the idea due to better control of the individual fingers, which is a good thing when wanting to play finger style more than strumming.
One thing though, is the setup of the guitar. Get as low as possible and still avoid the buzz, unless I play really hard, is a must. The playability of the guitar becomes so much more easy and that really have helped me a lot, not getting too frustrated, especially in the start.
I started 16 month ago and now I never give it a thought really. I play what the limits can do and can see I am improving slowly with few things with the ring finger and pinky, more stretch and more control.
and to be honest, the biggest limitation I have now, is actually that the finger tips on both fretting and plucking hands, only can do max 4 - 6 hours practice per day and even need a rest day or three now and then. Those steel strings are hard but gives such a lovely sound, so I stick with that and will keep playing guitar till the day I die, no doubt
Also those complaining about small hands, which are way larger than mine…oh man, they have no clue
Agreed, as I said in my post also, very important.
This seems to be true , I have been in many guitar conversations where the issue of hand size guitar limitations is discussed but usually stops after I show what my little stumpy paws can achieve.
Thank you for your words of encouragement. I haven’t gotten the sense from anyone here that they’re even remotely considering giving up playing. On the contrary, everyone involved appears to me to be actively engaged in exchanging specific strategies they’ve tried and included the outcomes good or bad - exactly as described in the original post:
We’ve even added quite a few tangential position/posture entries because it’s all interrelated. Perhaps changes there will compensate or reveal that hand size isn’t the source of the challenge at all. I’ve wondered whether having “smaller hands” in the title might limit the scope or the participation in the discussion. It looks like maybe that’s the case.
I appreciate the inspiration provided by Django and Tommy. I sincerely hope none of us lose fingers after we’ve mastered the instrument.
I look forward to hearing more from you about how you experimented and discovered the options that worked best for you.
Question for ya’ll. How does your positioning look when doing the shuffle riff? Are your fingers angled, like Justin’s are in this pic, or more perpendicular to the fretboard? If they’re like Justin’s, where the third and fourth fingers reach further than first and second, how are you achieving it? Are you bending the wrist? My hand goes entirely awkward and I lose muscle control trying to get my hands to work in that angled position if my index needs to be on the thickest strings.
Hey @artax_2 , ok I just checked myself. When playing the A chord, where the index finger frets the D string, my fingers are angled about like Justin’s in the pic, wrist is straight. Same for the D chord. To reach the A string with my index finger for the E chord, I do need to straighten out my fingers a bit, so they are less angled. I keep the wrist pretty much straight, though. This E-chord position doesn’t feel as nice, somehow, but that’s what I need to do to reach the A string with the index finger.
For me it all depends on the chords and where on the fretboard.
I have exactly the same issue. After I got the smaller Baby guitar, things have become more easy, though still struggle a bit in same and different other ways. When using the Gretsch, I do get back to unable to find an optimal position. Still messing around with that part, but as it have thinner body than a standard dreadnought acoustic, it sure is way better.
Now I have been carefully reading through all the thread here. So this is my answer and suggestions to all with small hands/ short fingers and is taken from my own experience and from what I have read and heard, here and there and every where.
The recommended thumb position doesn’t work for me.
The recommended sitting position doesn’t work for me.
Keep stretching and you will get there, doesn’t work, as there are physical limitations. Not sure why some people just doesn’t get this simple fact.
Try a different position or a different key. oh man , I just told, I have short fat farmer finger and is a beginner.
No wonder the frustration build up and you sometimes feel like slabbing someone and/or totally give up playing the guitar.
Yes, it is somewhat a scolding. Someone have to say it, else you will continue, even meaning well,
you might actually be the cause for someone to give up playing the guitar, if not already have done!!! Please give that a thought before you attack me, for pointing out the obvious!! Thnx!
Possible solutions:
First of all, don’t give up finding a way. The joy when things start to work and you hear the lovely tones from the instrument is just amazing.
The proper setup of the guitar is a must!!!. The reason is very simple. Since we barely can reach and the finger(s) doesn’t have the strength to push hard on the string in that position, it is so important, that it doesn’t take much force to press that string. The more leverage the finger have, the harder it can fret that string. The less leverage the finger have, the less force it can press with.
It’s a compromise. You want the string to nearly hit the frets, but avoiding the buzz all the way down the fretboard. If unable to setup a guitar yourself and/or not willing to learn it or having someone to do it for free, it can be a little costly.
Best is to learn it yourself, especially if not having more or less constant temperature and humidity, as that can actually make the neck bend just enough to get buzzing sound, when setup is as I have it. Just a tiny notch on the truss rod can solve that and remove the buzz.
I know many will not go to this extreme as I have done, but then find a proper compromise, that works. We want to play music. Right?
Thumb position is important. In my case and I guess with all having same issue with small hands/short fingers, the recommended is not suitable at all. Period.
So finding the most suitable thumb position for every chord, every movement, is crucial important. Quickly it becomes automatic and you wont think about it again. Though in the start it is important to put some attention there. The thumb have to rest comfortable. It have to feel natural. The recommended thumb position does not in many cases.
Especially for us beginners, the thumb position is very important, as it support the other fingers and it provide the anchor for hitting the chords more consistent, when changing chords.
I will try take some pictures and put up, to show how and where my thumb is placed in different positions or figure out something.
The sitting position is for me high on the body. The neck is pointed away from me and just slightly upwards. Guitar resting on the plucking hand thigh, for me the right leg. Not the left and not in the middle. Have considered getting a stand like the classical players have, but so far didn’t get to that point.
Also I use a footstool or have legs cross over, so the thigh comes up a bit higher which also get the guitar higher up on the body.
Standing when I play the guitar is not an option for me. So can’t really comment on that, though I have been playing while laying down with slightly elevated upper body. I can make it work pretty ok, though I do prefer the sitting position.
The angle of the guitar, in the sense of being able to see the strings/fretting hand, is more important than I first thought. It is more easy for me to fret when angle is in a way, so I only see the lowest E string. Yes, I still have the bad habit of bending over and look.
Some months ago, I started to close my eyes and feel the strings and frets. Yes, it takes time and effort to get into that habit, but I benefit a lot from it. It was very frustrating in the start, as it could easy take 20 seconds before I had found the Dm Yes, I still fumble sometimes when going from E or C to Dm. But it have improved a lot with the feeling exercises. A lot. Can only highly recommend it!
I will have my mind on this issue over the next couple of weeks and see if anything else comes up, else I think it’s pretty much what I have done and put thoughts into, to make things work for me.
Please don’t get discouraged playing this lovely instrument, which the guitar is. The effort is well worth it, when you have found a way, your way.
It’s all about practise, posture, stretching and hand position. Unless you’re playing extremely exotic and stretchy chords (noone around here are) then your hands are big enough!
I’m definitely hoping over time my finger stretch will increase width-wise, like what you’ve shown with the difference in right and left hands. I think it maybe will. When I tried to start using thumb to mute thick E when doing A and D chords, it was simply impossible at first. But after a long while, I do notice that I have the ability to touch the string, a change from when I first started. I can’t get it to mute the E with the C chord though. With the third finger placed so high, the thumb has to point the “wrong” direction (towards the headstock). I can’t fit the whole neck within my grip like that, and I have narrow and thin necks. At least not yet.
Your not alone I can’t mute the E string with my thumb when playing the C chord either and the span on my left hand is 8 3/4" from tip of pinky to tip of thumb.
My own 2 (or more) cents on the topic. Some of it may sound defeatist so read them at your own peril:
Using a tape measure to decide if your hand is too small or too big is a bit over the top. It might be good for comparing the size of your hands to those of other people, but I think that the actual feeling of the instrument in your own hands beats any “scientific” measurement.
Instructional videos like those of Justin are recorded from a very specific angle so they may not reveal the full picture (no pun intended) of the grips. I remember that he used a dedicated overhead angle to show the thumb behind the neck, but if my memory serves me well, he also said that we may need to make smaller adjustments to ensure a clean sound and avoid injuries.
Photos of famous players also don’t reveal anything. Most of those are snapshots of a series of movements that the player was (probably) the most comfortable with and which served the purpose of the music the best.
The most effective way of improving dexterity for me is (surprise surprise) actual playing and doing some of the exercises mentioned by Justin (e.g. the finger gym). Some gentle warm-up before playing (massaging and stretching the hands and the fingers) also helps. Scale practice can also be used this way. The results may not show overnight but they will come in time.
Practicing chord progressions with different grips or using only triads can also be good ways of broadening your guitar vocabulary and overcoming hand size-related problems.
I’ve recently purchased a full-scale (34") bass guitar. Now, my height is pretty average (5’ 4" or so) and my hands are not big by any means (I’ve never measured them), but I’m still able to play the instrument. In fact, when I pick up one of my guitars, it feels a bit tiny in comparison for some time and my hand stretch suddenly feels bigger than it used to be. However, I don’t know if it’s really the case or if I just position my hand differently.
My general attitude is to keep on trying and practicing, but if someone is really frustrated because of the physical difficulties of playing the guitar, I’d advise them to a) try guitars of a different size, b) accept their limitations or c) look for an altogether different instrument (e.g. banjo, mandolin, some sort of keyboards, woodwinds or percussion) to play.
I may be repeating myself, but don’t compare yourself to others. Everyone’s bodies and capabilities are different, so take all the advice you receive with caution. Analogies have their limitations, but in my case, all the money, training, dieting and EPO in the world wouldn’t be enough to make me a Tour de France champion even though I’d be able to ride a bike like most people.
HI everybody! Just discovered this thread. I’m 5’2", hand span about 7.5" (I can almost stretch to 8" with my left hand after all the finger stretches I’ve been doing, right hand can’t get past 7.5").
I’d tried to learn guitar several times before and always came to the conclusion that 1. I have no talent for playing music plus 2. hands too small. This January my guitarist husband said “hey, I think I’m going to sell that little Martin … unless you want to use it?” (I don’t know why he had a mini guitar at all, with his large hands, but it worked out for me.) I found Justin’s site and I’m making good progress and having fun (just started Beginner 2).
I’ve been doing a lot of chromatic scales as a finger-stretching exercise, and I find I need to move my hand around, and keep my thumb up against the palm, not curling around the guitar neck. Glad to hear I’m not the only one with thumb and hand-moving issues. And I keep being surprised when Justin says “now, you’ll actually have to use your pinky for this one” because I’ve been using it all along for lots of chords. It can reach frets the ring finger can’t. My husband assures me that there’s nothing wrong with using your own fingering, use what works for you.
Biggest problem right now is that with my fingers curled, the middle and ring fingertips won’t separate, like in the picture @eric.lennon posted, and I need to find a good stretch to help with that.
The A7sus4 chord from the Stuck 3&4 lesson is a good stretch, but I don’t like the sound of that chord, so it’s not very motivating to practice a lot.
This is a common concern/-complaint. I definitely fight this as well.
I think it is important to note that this is absolutely normal and how the hand is meant to work.
Yes, at first glance, Justin appears not to suffer this, however, a closer look and he and most guitarist still have hands that do this. They just have built the strength and mobility to gain a bit more movement when needed.
Stretching is good for you, but stretching won’t gain the separation you seek. Exercise and strengthening the limited separation we can achieve is the answer. Do this by playing a lot of music and exercises that require a bit more reach.
A good one is slur exercises, hammer ons and pull offs. Very good for strength building I understand (can’t yet claim first hand knowledge with this).
There are more than a few times I alter a fingering (if feasible) so that these two fingers don’t screw me up.
Hi Stacy @artax_2, I think you’re referring to the riff in Grade 2 Module 13. Here are two photos of how my hands have settled in: -
You’ll notice my wrist is not completely straight, but it’s not too bent either. It hasn’t caused me any discomfort.
I realized that I’ve developed a habit of keeping my first finger down and only moving my second. That might not be good, I don’t know!
I rewatch the lessons too, over and over. I like to play along with Justin. And the tidbits he adds in about what challenges there might be for whatever the lesson is on is usually bang on, so getting his solutions drilled into my head from the start is a benefit.
That’s very interesting what you suggest about barre chords- rolling the other fingers as well. I’ll try that. For anyone interested, one thing I do to help with the barre chords is to just let the index finger go up higher (meaning more of my fingertip goes past the top edge of the fretboard). I tried for a long time to use only the upper half of my index finger, only scooting the fingertip up further as needed to get that thickest string. But depending on the day, sometimes my hand doesn’t feel strong enough, or somehow I’ll get the stupid B string right in a knuckle crease. When either of those happens, I just readjust and use the entire length of the index. Sometimes that’s better, sometimes its not, and I haven’t landed on one or the other as my go-to positioning.
Your photo doing the shuffle riff- that’s helpful. I can get similar positioning, but in doing so my index really wants to roll over to its side. That might be perfectly fine. Now, if I push the neck all the way into the thumb curve, that puts more of my palm in front of the fretboard, and then the fingers will angle a bit more, buuuuut the stretch of the third finger is really short and weak. Might be worth it for me to try working up some strength and stretch in that position. Also I’ve GOT to start angling the neck outwards a little instead of keeping it parallel to my body.
that I hate, hate, hate straps. Hurts my neck to even look at one.
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