Learning Guitar Epiphany and a friendly caution!

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So very recently I had a light bulb moment, well not quite, I have been building up to it for at least the last 8 weeks. I thought that sharing this might help some.

A potted history, I have attempted to play guitar since I was 11, I am now 66, I played rhythm guitar(not very well) in a couple of amateur bands in my early 20’s. I dabbled with guitar for intermittent years. I did 18 months of BTEC Music at 45, but had to stop due to a health issue affecting my playing just as I was starting to improve generally. I picked up a guitar again in early October 2024.

Initially I started using an online app from the USA which got me going again, and then a friend said take a look at JustinGuitars, I also found GuitarTricks, both of these are very good, in my humble opinion, each offers a similar but slightly different approach. So I focused primarily on JustinGuitars generally supplemented with some Blues stuff from the other. Having got hooked playing guitar again I convinced myself I deserved my dream Gibson, sold a few bits and purchased one. One aspect of buying a new Gibson was that I was introduced to their learning App.

So here comes the cautionary tale!

Guitar teaching Apps like this can offer you a large database of lessons to learn from, scales, licks, riffs, etc and songs of many genres/styles. The Apps often take the approach that you play something along with a moving tab that you follow, with your guitar either connected via a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) or it using the microphone of the phone, or tablet you have the App running on. You start a lesson at a slow speed and then move up gradually to the full tempo, as you practice you are given a score and some with AI feedback. It all feels easy to use and a simple learning process. Most of these type of learning apps reward you on a points based system as you progress, giving you stars or badges of merit, trying to incentivise you, and some have leagues.

So I used the App a lot I went through nearly all the lessons and achieved high scores in nearly all, those I struggled with I redid until I got a high percentage. I chose 6 favourite songs I wanted to learn, graded as intermediate, and I practiced them on a daily basis. My playing did improve but about 2 months ago I noticed several things, and I was not sure what was causing my problems.

My Issues:

  1. I was able to play through all of my chosen songs through, but would always make mistakes, fluffed chords, missed or wrong notes in solos, rhythm going off etc, I would often get low 80% scores but that was it, WHY? The App would tell me I was improving, and to keep at it, sometimes it would highlight a chord change, aspects to focus on in a solo, but not why or how. The scores only indicated I had played the songs/lessons many times but not necessarily very well!
  2. I tried to play the songs, scales and some licks from memory, to be honest this was not good. I became worried this iwas because I am older and cannot remember stuff easily?
  3. I tried to improvise solos, I could do some simple stuff but even though I had gone through at least 40 individual lick lessons, I would say 80% were lost to me, unless I went and looked them up in the App.
  4. I was quite dissatisfied and becoming disillusioned with my guitar playing and with my inability to improve, and was very unsure what to do.

As a result of the above:-

I decided to find a good guitar teacher, to see if I could break out from this mould and decreasing cycle. After a few attempts I found one I gelled with.

I also started to try and analyse where and what mistakes I was making when playing songs using the App.

I tried to find answers to my problems elsewhere as well.

Lessons Learned:-

The guitar teacher, who is also a professional musician, advised to me not use the App, he said "Yes, you will learn some stuff from it well and improve slowly, but will also learn some things badly and embed them and will continue to re-enforce the same mistakes, or bad technique, and will stifle musical creativity and understanding’. I agreed to stop ASAP once I had committed my chosen songs to memory or had notated them down to refer to. Stopping using it will also save me cash. I am in the process of trying to commit each song to memory and play them from memory. If I stumble or get a part wrong, I check that out, practice it slowly and then play without the App prompting me. My teacher has given me some basic exercises, scales, chords, rhythms and an approach, I already notice an improvement in just 2 weeks. He advised me to play songs and scales along with a metronome, and play songs with a backing track or the original recordings.

Mainly by looking at where I was going wrong playing the songs I have come to realise why I struggle to play them without the App, it had become a crutch, one I needed to throw away. It was effectively locking me into a way of playing and restricting me for the future.

The ‘Light Bulb’ moment or epiphany came when I received the email from JustinGuitars with the link to ACCELERATED LEARNING TECHNIQUES WITH PETE WHITTARD
I watched the video whilst having a lazy lie in bed this morning. There were some answers to fundamental issues I was experiencing. It confirmed I have not been effectively committing what I have been playing to memory, and even worse I am repeating the same mistakes over and over again and stamping them into memory along with any good bits. Because I have been just playing large chunks of songs, or exercises, getting them into my brain is pretty poor. In a way I had already checked this out myself a few weeks ago when I tried to play ‘Wish You Were Here’, all of it including solos, without referring to the App or cheat sheets and I got stuck very quickly. I reviewed the parts that I struggled with and then tried again from memory, gradually it improved, but still needs work. I have done the same with ‘Purple Haze’, once again I had to unravel engrained mistakes, and commit it fully into memory. I also tested scales I have practiced and thought I knew and sadly found that this is poor as well, only a few old faithfuls come to hand easily, Minor Pentatonic & Blues positions 1 and 2 and bits of the other positions. Major and Minor scales are both limited to position 1. Very frustrating as I have practiced them all in all 5 positions, but have failed to properly learn them. I would emphasise that I have practiced the songs at least once a day for 2-3 months so 60-90 times or more. So even thought I have practiced a lot every day my approach to learning material and techniques has been not great up to now, and probably very ineffective!

So to sum up, my feelings on using online Guitar Apps like I have outlined are somewhat mixed. Yes, they can get a beginner to bash something out on a Guitar, but I would question whether the person is actually learning how to play the instrument, but merely just trying to copy material, and worse still if you remove the App then the person will likely struggle.

I hope that have come to the right conclusions that learning short chunks of material, songs, licks, riffs, scales, rhythms and then playing it from memory ASAP and adding to it is the best route to learn the guitar, and using repetition to improve muscle memory, speed and technique is the way forward gradually building speed but always focusing on accuracy first.

I hope my experience and thoughts may be of help to some of you. If any of you Justin or the JustinGuitar teachers have views on my thoughts then these would be gratefully received.

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Wow, that is good insight. It is great you are finding a way to move forward now.

I haven’t tried those apps, aside from Justin’s. I have worried that they are just like a video game and you can learn to follow them but not much else, which is what you confirm.

Even Justin’s app needs to be used for the right purpose. It trains chords changes, timing and rhythm, but doesn’t really help you memorize songs to play independently. Something for early training but after a time, we need to move forward from that.

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I’d argue that an app is just a tool, no different from a shovel and it’s how you use it that’s important. Depending how you use the shovel you can end up with a well manicured garden or laid-up in bed with a sore back. An app is no different in that if you just follow what’s on screen then you’re not using it optimally

I am using apps to help me learn but they’re not holding me back. Typically in an app like Yousician the notes are scrolling fast enough that if you don’t learn the songs then you’ll never keep up. Maybe some people can translate from the on-screen notation to notes on the guitar in real-time but I definitely can’t. So if there’s a difficult section, I’ll slow it down, screenshot it or write it down, practice moving my hands in the correct pattern on my acoustic guitar and work from there. The end result is I’m now taking what I’ve been learning and playing them to the original recording via my amp without the app. The app does give you some feedback but you have to be honest with yourself too - often the app will show you hit a note/chord but you know in your heart that you fluffed it and it sounded bad - this is where you need to focus your practice.

Just because stuff is in an app doesn’t mean you can’t write it down and play it outside the app. This will definitely help with retention

I will say that I’m not a fan of learning licks or riffs. In isolation they’re a bit useless. This is where music theory, either from a course or teacher is probably the right approach

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Learning, memorizing and retaining songs is hot topic. We have players of all ages here but we shouldn’t point to our age too soon when it comes to retainign the information.

An app is valuable in its own way, especially to link what your are learning to a rhythmic context. It can unload a lot of technical burdon. Like a GPS, an app puts you on a rail. The knowledge doesn’t get encoded very storngly into your memory; most of it is in your working memory and focusses on execution a mechanical task.

It cannot unload the cognitive load for you though.
You need to encode the information in a stronger fashion, tied to your knowledge network.

I talk about this in the most recent Live Club I did about memorizing songs

If you enjoyed the session with Pete, you’ll probably get some useful insights from my Live Club as well

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Didn’t read your whole book but from what I read about your in person teacher is telling you to “Use your ears not your eyes to learn to play music”

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In short, I aim an electrician I trained hard to be one then I looked for the right tool to help me I went through a lot of pliers and screwdrivers until I found the right one that helped me to become better, once found I stuck with them that’s why I am here cheers Hec

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In a app the rewards or ranking means nothing , that the way the music sounds to your ears that counts !

how it feels when you play , how you can improve your fingers placement , or wrist
you can embellish a song later too

there are so much more to do than just looking at the ranking in an app

with or without an app , the way you play wont change if you do not use your ears and try to ameliorate what you feel is going wrong !
and using an app doesn’t mean you cant memorize the songs …

[quote="mattswain, post:3, topic:396205”]
Typically in an app like Yousician the notes are scrolling fast enough that if you don’t learn the songs then you’ll never keep up.
[/quote]

For me that is whats helping me memorizing the songs
its fast so I have to remember what im playing and not rely on whats on the screen

a teacher will give you tips but can’t play for you , so you still have to understand how to ameliorate the way you play as a motor skill
to engrave it in your body

we are all different , we all learn in our own way
what is good for someone is not necesseraly good for someone else
if apps was not a good way of learning for you , it doesn’t mean that it will be the same for another player
you can also do both , play sometimes with an app , sometimes on your own …
there are so many ways of practicing !
and we’re not pro guitarists , we’re not doing gigs , we have no pressure , learning takes time
there is nor reason to rush the process of learning
no reason to do things ASAP
some people are fast learners , some not
its not a problem !
learning is a slow process ! something to enjoy
its.a life long journey ! enjoy the ride

In the end , with or without an app , the thing that counts is how the song sounds in your ears when you play and to learn how to ameliorate what you feel is wrong !

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I think that you’re right, I had a big problem remembering songs when I used to play covers of famous songs, I wasn’t a learner anymore and could play reasonably but my stumbling block was remembering songs without any sort of cheat sheets. So I took the drastic step of deciding to just improvise in the genres I like, recording my noodling along the way and if anything looked interesting I would go back to it and look at its potential for being developed. It’s slow progress but for me it was less stressful and more enjoyable. I usually just come up with something about once a month but sometimes that can extend to 2 or 3 months.
A lot depends on your motivation, do you really want to learn popular songs or do you want to create music?

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"Like a GPS, an app puts you on a rail. " Yes I agree, GPs will get you there in an automated way, but consider you can take the same journey many times using GPS but never really learn the route, so when the GPS fails or you ar win another car, you quickly become lost.

I see an App as a possible aid to getting playing, but without committing scales, arpeggios, songs, rhythms, etc to long term memory then being able to use them will not be possible without and Aid Memoir be it an App or sheet of music or Tab.

I think we have generally the same view, I had started your video, and am half way through it and it makes sense on approach to Memorising songs.

Thanks

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So if there’s a difficult section, I’ll slow it down, screenshot it or write it down, practice moving my hands in the correct pattern on my acoustic guitar and work from there. The end result is I’m now taking what I’ve been learning and playing them to the original recording via my amp without the app.

Yes, I have done much the same, and then tried to play without the App only to stumble again and again. I have found improvement only when I learnt each part of the song thoroughly and memorised it and then put it all together. Maybe I was becoming too reliant on the App in the first place.

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I would elaborate;
“use your ears AND eyes AND feeling AND whatever other things that enrich the encoding in your memory.”

Cool, let me know where you agree or disagree with me.
I love it when science and philosophy find eachother in topics like these ^^

One of the many tihngs you can to to “take control” over de the song. It’s no longer a linear line but a structure where you build the song again. Understanding the song in layers and blocks give you more to hold on to and to build with. You need to recall more but there is more to tie it to. I was in a session with a student recently and I gave similar advice when it came to having confidence in his own skill by taking control (with the song, its blocks and having several variations for the blocks at his mental disposure)

Finding good methods to learn; in general but also on a personal level, is interesting and rewarding. Good to so that many of us don’t take everything for granted!

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Oh it’s hard for sure. There’s several mental processes going on when you’re playing guitar, above and beyond what each of your hands are doing. As well as hitting the correct strings and the correct frets, you have to do this at the right time and also be remembering what comes next. For me though the answer is to gradually take away the supports, not to blame them because you can’t do something that is difficult. I’m at the stage where synchronising my hands still isn’t automatic so I’ll take all the help I can get.

It’s also possible to still test yourself when using an app. If I think I know a section, I’ll look away from the screen or close my eyes and see how that goes.

The other positive thing that rarely gets mentioned about playing with an app is that it teaches you to play without looking at your guitar because you are looking at the screen. If you ever play for an audience, you’ll not want to spend the entire performance staring at your fretboard

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If you needed eyes to learn to play music Blind people wouldn’t be able to play and some of the best musicians are blind.
Your eyes will lie to you your ears won’t.

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Good point @stitch :wink:
my point mostly was: “use as much as you can to enrich so there is more links to be made” :smiley:

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Apps can be great at the beginning. I had made small attempts to start learning guitar for about 2 years but hadn’t moved past simple single-note melodies and riffs. And then Yousician really helped me to get into it with its gamified approach and instant gratification of playing something actually musical right away. They also help (like anything you need to look at while playing) with learning to feel the neck and play without looking at your hands, as all your attention is on the screen. But they won’t make you a great player on their own and sooner rather than later, it’s better to switch to other learning methods.

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This is a good synthesis of the issue here.

Just to reiterate what a number of people said, there is no gimmick, or magic trick to learning guitar (or anything else for that matter). You cannot relay on the app to teach you, it is just a tool. You need a curious mind and to be able to mentally push through memorization into usage of what you are learning. Yes you need the memorization so that your fingers know what to do, but your imagination needs to kick in at some point and try to express the thoughts in your imagination.

Have Fun!!

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or you can just do both or even use multiple methods … if you switch too soon you just wont benefit from what the app has to offer : like the learning to play without looking at the neck for example :confused:

there is not only 1 method , there are many many many methods , just use all that can benefit you ! dont use just one !

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I think becoming an independent or more self-conscious student of anything takes time. Good on you that you managed to step up your playing and find an approach that suits you.

Personally, I have never used any apps (not even Justin’s) to learn guitar/bass/music. I might be turning into a grumpy old man yelling at clouds, but I’m getting tired of the “appification” (if there’s such a word) of mostly everything around me. Like, in some cities you can’t even buy a bus ticket or use a public toilet if you don’t have a smartphone to run the app on. It’s ridiculous.

With that said, I concur to what @stitch said about using your ears vs your eyes in music. Of course, in a live setting musicians may keep eye contact, but not 100% of the time. It’s just not something that you would need to rely on to be able to keep time, for example. It’s more important what you hear, and another level will be when you realize that what you thought you heard was not entirely correct, like in a transcription, so that you know where you made a mistake and can correct it for yourself. I don’t think any app can teach you that.

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Of course, ears are going to be the most important of your senses in music, but @LievenDV is advocating using all the tools at your disposal. I find sight a very useful adjunct (as I’m sure most beginners do). It allows me to learn more efficiently by looking at the frets and strings until things become automatic. I often remember chords and lyrics by the way they look on a page. A visualisation of the circle of fifths is very handy too.
This does not apply to everyone, as the aphantasia thread discusses.
Touch plays an important role as well, but much more subconsciously, although I can’t think of how smell and taste help me (I only metaphorically stink and have bad taste :rofl:)

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Hendrix played guitar with his teeth so in a way he was using his taste :sweat_smile:

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