Learning Scales - Sing Notes Fingerstyle Question

Dear all,

I would like to steal a little bit of your time, if you can check out this video.

He is saying really interesting thing for me - learning the scales and connecting it with note names, so you train your ears, voice and being able to play any melody.

What is your opinion to this? I am pretty surprised this is like ā€œahaā€ moment to me. I never understood how someone can play melody from scale to make it sound good… I was learning just existing pieces.
Now it makes sense to me some musician are making ā€œweirdā€ noises while playing… arent they just connecting the melody notes from scale? I am trying to understand there is some connection with intervals too?

It looks like DO RE MI FA SOL LA SI is the way… or am I wrong? Maybe Justins is teaching this in Theory Course (I did only 1st grade).

I can see there are many topics about learning scales, but I could not find this question, so if it is doubled feel free to merge or delete post. :slight_smile:

I don’t know the answer to your question as I’m not that far in my learning yet. However, I assume this ā€œahaā€ moment will come as you learn more theory ( which I’m trying to do now).

Perhaps you will have seen the very recent announcement of a Justin Q&A all about why you are learning theory. Perhaps some of the answers to your questions will come out in that session. I think it’s tonight 8pm utc but I might be mistaken.

Ian

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I have not seen this video that you post, but given the question it asks in the top of your video , I would take a look at Justin’s videos, maybe that will help ?

When NOT To Learn Scales…

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@Prof_Thunder I am waiting for that session. Maybe I will check if I can put my question somewhere if it is not closed yet.
Edit: I submitted short version of my question here, we will see if it will be picked or not.

@roger_holland This is pretty interesting… I learned scales only because it was part of Justins grade system, but I did not start to improvise on them, because I really dont understand.
I used them for technique things like sync move with both hands, some economy movements… but not for being able to make them musical at all.

Now I can see when I am learning something there are notes that are used pretty often when playing melody in fingerstyle patterns and it is starting to make sense… but singing them in that ā€œweird namesā€ and connecting seems like great tool to me. I think I should learn scale, but for musical approach. I can play and hear C major scale for example… but cant use it. But if I think about some tunes I can play I am using exactly those notes from the scales and they are making melody line. My goal is being able to play melody lines on top of chords and finding them by me, I think it will make me really free and openning door to be more creative.

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And why learn a scale that you cannot apply/play with?
So what I don’t fully understand is that if you follow Justin’s lessons in order, he also clearly says always (really very very often ) that you will only learn the next one if you can make music with the current scale that you are learning, otherwise what is the point? They are the same notes…some an octave higher or lower in a different place…

Greetings

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@roger_holland That is different aspect to this. I finished Grade 1 and found out fingerstyle is the way for me… but Justin is not aiming his teaching to that as I imagine. I needed more.
I really dont like I have to go through following grades with pick. I just dont prefer using it…
I can play bare F…I can play a lot more than is in Grade 2, but with fingers. I stopped with Coldplay Scientist with pick as last thing… I am really into learning what I will use and what I like. Sometimes I go back to Grade 2 to pick something, because I want little break.

Maybe I am asking questions that are answered in later stage then?

I am this guy, I am sure you know me - I am pretty active here. Sometimes too much. :smiley:
This is me

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If this is your goal, then I think you need to work on transcribing. Transcribing will let you hear a melody and find it on the guitar. As you improve with enough practice you will be able to play things you can hear in your head. Scales are important building blocks for the melodies, but sometimes melodies will use notes outside a particular scale.
Can you pick out simple tunes like Happy Birthday? These are great things to practice.

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interesting topic, reminding me to learn more in the theory field :slight_smile:

Practicing scales (gosh. only did C and G major and E and A minor pentatonic yet!) I divide the practice … going slow, I also speak out the names of the notes (but I do it like ā€œG, A, Bā€¦ā€ and rather for the reason to learn the fretboard better) and when reaching a higher speed, I leave the talking out to be able to increase speed further. Of course, singing instead of talking would be better I think, but often, I don’t want to disturb anyone (or simply am ashamed of my singing :slight_smile: )

Keeping that Do, Re, Mi regardless of the key like in that video reminds me of that other thread regarding ear training Short Term Musical Memory where some teachers tell you to attach each note of the scale to a certain character. ( I also found Jordan Klemons who attaches a gesture/character to every note.)

Sorry, I can’t really help a lot here, but regarding that soloing you mention, I think you can just try with a backing track in a certain key you can play the scale of. And first just hit random notes in this key. Just a few notes (only one or two) at first, see how that sounds, try with every note. Then, if you know which chords are played at which time in the backing track, try hitting the root note of the chord at that moment. Slowly, soloing will feel easier and nicer with practicing…
Well, I think it’s easiest to start soloing with a A minor pentatonic scale if you know it already.

Good luck!

PS. Just listened to the ā€œunchained melodyā€ you linked above - wonderful! And oh yes, your new guitar sounds so good too!

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@mathsjunky Transcribing is like the end goal level, or not? I am really talking about the first steps that needs to be done.
You are talking about Happy Birthday… I cant play it. Would be interesting to find melody by myself, I will try that.
I can see again here… more I know, more I see how little I know. :smiley:

@domi7 Thank you for idea. I think this is also some of Justins lesson - you play backing track and playing ā€œrandomā€ notes from scales. He did it in video and it sounded great… but why his playing sounded great. :smiley: That is the question. If I am learning it like him to copy that I wont put in that my own creation, but just learning something from memory… again. I think I am in circles about musical mind and expressing myself now…

You know C major scale. Can you really use it musically or you are playing it just up and down?
I am pretty sure there will be some pattern how far is one note to other one and it sound ā€œgoodā€ or ā€œbadā€. More likely sad, happy, hurry… slow…

Thank you for listening. This is few months ago. :blush: Now I touched slapping technique. :sweat_smile:
Slapping demo

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Well, I did it like you I think, followed Justin’s course and when the soloing lesson came around tried a bit and it was ā€œso soā€. :slight_smile: Not practiced a lot back then.
But later, on several occasions, I practiced the with the A minor pentatonic scale, because that was often recommended and also works with C major (just a few notes left out as it consists only of five out of the seven notes).
Just as said above, I think Justin recommended this, start sparsely with just one or a few notes.
And every few practice sessions, it became easier and more fun to do. I still have to try with other scales, but a start is made.

Hey, you play a lot of nice patterns and melodies in your linked video!

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I think transcribing / ear training is something that can be done in parallel to other guitar skills. Personally I think that once you can play a major scale you can start transcribing, you certainly don’t need lots of theory or scale knowledge - although it can help with some ā€˜educated guesses’ sometimes :slight_smile:
Happy birthday is a great place to start as it’s all in the major scale and it’s a very well known tune. Try others, nursery rhymes, well known melodies, theme tunes, solos - anything you can hear in your head.

Hi Michal, I play some fingerstyle acoustic stuff and my view is that learning to play scales in the standard positions (like Am pentatonic starting on string 6, fret 5 or G major scale starting on string 6, fret 3), is not very useful for the music that I’m playing. That’s because when playing fingerstyle (I’m thinking mostly Travis picking), you have to keep the bass going and can’t start improvising up on frets 5–8 (where you can’t play the bass notes).

What’s more useful is being aware of the different notes in a scale (could be major, minor pentatonic or major pentatonic) available when you are fingering a given chord in the open position. As an example, say you are playing Freight Train (which I know you have learned). That is in the key of C, and it’s useful to finger a C chord and know the notes in the chord and also the other notes in the C major scale that you can play with your free fingers: G (string 1, fret 3), F (fret 1), D (string 2, fret 3), B (open), A (string 3, fret 2), etc. A good exercise is to pick out the notes of the C major scale while holding down the C chord. Even better (but much harder!) is to pick out the C major scale while playing a Travis style bass line. So, I’d say the video that you posted is not too relevant for this kind of music.

You can also do this with the other chords in the song: G, F and E (in the case of Freight Train).

For other keys, you will learn the notes for other scales. Also, many times in blues songs you’ll be focusing on the minor pentatonic, instead of the major scale, or perhaps taking notes from both.

BTW, learning how to play scales in open position while fingering chords is useful for improvising fingerstyle, but it’s pretty advanced. At your level (and mine, too, to be honest), I think learning a bunch of fingerstyle songs is more important than learning how to improvise. It’s nice to understand where the melody lines come from, but it’s not really necessary to know the scales to learn the songs, imo.

@domi7 Well I am gonna revisit that lesson and maybe apply it to fingerstyle then… I will see what it will do. I think that my main problem is that there are some aspects where I am in advanced beginner circles and in some I did not even start… but that is really hard to say, because how you can tell what is best time for something. Even now I got a lot to work on daily basis and including ā€œeverything I shouldā€ would aim to overwhelm myself…
Thank you very much. :slight_smile: I have to check out some open mic, so I see how much you improved.

@mathsjunky Thank you very much. This advice is really the thing I needed to read - the thing where I can try and apply that.

@jjw Thank you very much. You are saying really important things and applying them to my playing too…
You are right, I learned Freight Train. Sadly I did not play it some months and now it will be really rusty - I have to revive it again.
I also like blues fingerstyle and that is exactly with travis picking, I got lot of videos with this technique.
It is interesting that you are saying learning songs and tunes and melodies by that…
From time to time when I play something for 100th time… I automaticaly try something I know from different tune. Sometimes it fits and sometimes not… but being able to ā€œknowā€ what you can use is really important. And there is really big difference even in one bar to play one note twice or once in a row.

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I understand that very well! I also didn’t practice everything Justin taught in grade 3 - he himself said that it’s time to choose what you want to learn (and possibly even exlude some things).
Also John above talks about it - maybe you never want to tackle stuff outside fingerstyle. I could understand this, because I love fingerstyle so much too! :heart_eyes:

But I also think - more for myself - that without practicing other stuff to a certain degree you can’t really judge on how much fun (or not) that part of guitar playing could be.

Personally I had to tackle soloing when Alykat did a song with me and wanted me to record some solo… and also because I would like to make more originals and many pop or rock songs contain solos. So I practiced a bit and I think the solos became slowly better with every song.

Ok, sorry for all the talking. It’s just my personal point of view and if you solely play fingerstyle that’s great too, of course! :slight_smile:

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@domi7 Nothing to say sorry here… this is the discuss I wanted to have. :slight_smile:
I always like others experience and point of view… if I did not want to discuss it with this great community I would put it into ChatGPT. :smiley: But that is not it…

I got some plans in my head… I am talking with @math07 a lot in personal message, we got same course. I wanna finish it by the end of this year and then I will focus on something more so I will se where I end. Maybe I can check out if the Grade 2 can be done with fingerstyle.
In my experience everything is connected and by the end… I could end just by better guitarist.

What is your main source of learning fingerstyle?

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That’s interesting - because Mathieu is (as far as I know) into rock and power chords and soloing and possibly didn’t do fingerstlye yet, so you could learn from each other.

My main source… oh. It’s been some time I watched lessons. I plan to put my path on a learning log anytime soon (I’m talking about starting one for a few moths now :blush:).

Lately, I mostly ā€œnoodleā€ and practice what I would like to do, like fingerstyle in 3/4 or 6/8 which is not so easy for me, or other irregular bass playing patterns, or finding melodies on my own while playing some chord progressions.
In terms of learning and practicing, I mostly did other things than fingerstyle recently (learned songs or followed Justin’s BLIM course) and the fingerstyle was more often the sitting down and relaxing or having fun part.

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@domi7 Mathieu is BLIM attendant and also got Acoustic Adventure (Paul Davids) as a gift. Under some topics we bumped into each other and I made him try same cathegory in that course. :smiley:

Well, I am looking forward to see your learning log. I write it down from time to time…
But seeing your path could be really interesting. Maybe you can PM a day you make one, so I dont miss it.
I am pretty sure BLIM is enough about materials… Math told me there is long time block you should learn that.

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Heyheyyyy lovely Community! Let’s keep this space light, positive, and supportive.

It looks like Carreta is asking for some insights to help their learning. Sharing outside resources seems fine in this case. :slightly_smiling_face:

I’m cleaning up this thread to keep the space positive and focused. Thanks for your understanding!

Cheers,
Fanny

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Learning to sing scales in different keys was one of the best things I’ve ever done to improve my ear. Well, at least as far as picking out melodies, that is… I’ve got lots of work to do in other areas of ear training.

I started out using solfege (do, ra, mi…), because I already had that in my head.

But recently, I have switched to singing scale degrees (one, two, three,…). I find this makes more sense to me, as there is a direct correlation between what you are singing, and where it is in the scale.

And I would like to note that this works just fine with a pick, and presumably with fingers style as well. It’s not clear to me why you mention finger style in your topic title. This is about training your ear AND CONNECTING THAT WITH YOUR HANDS - it doesn’t matter how you actually play the notes, AFAIK.

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@Tbushell Thank you for sharing your personal experience. :slight_smile: You are right this is not just about fingerstyle, I probably mentioned it because it is my main technique of playing.

I am gonna try to figure out Happy Birthday as Paul recommended to me and I will see. I am gonna attend this session of Justins Theory and maybe it will finally make me buy his other courses too. :sweat_smile:

@FannyJustinGuitar Thank you very much. :slight_smile:

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