Music Theory Live Class #I

[Jamolay]

I am almost through the video. I enjoyed it. Tons of information, connected together from basics that I am comfortable with through to the depth that is way beyond me at the moment.
It was presented in a real and live manner as well, with involvement from Justin, David and members of the community. Very personal and personable.

I definitely like what it brings to the Justin Guitar program and community. Very, very cool to feel it in real-time, rather than just the web program (which is great by itself). I hope this format thrives, it adds a lot to an already excellent learning experience.

I also like the preview of the complex stuff. I think, as mind boggling as it can be, it sets up familiarity so that when we do get there, it isn’t such a surprise. I tend to look ahead for this very reason, a gestalt of music theory, to see the big picture as I learn the beginning.
The way Justin adds depth beyond the basics helps me understand how we will eventually go from here to there and helps me appreciate why we are learning where we are.

It is up to me to stay focused on where I am learning in the face of much more complex information. We are up against this all the time with you tube and independent learning. We can jump into songs beyond our level any time (guilty!) or courses on Justin’s and many other websites way beyond our level (guilty again!). It is the challenge of independent internet learning and perhaps one advantage of having an in person instructor who holds you to a progressive plan better.

[Stuartw]

@judi

Could you elaborate? Thanks!

Screenshot from the lesson.

[judi]

Got it. My noob brain gets so confused with terminology! This may help a bit: Major Scale: Essential Information. There’s a follow-up video called The Major Scale: How and Why. They are both overviews, but I find that helpful at my still-naive level of understanding. Reflecting what @Jamolay said above, this helps me make sense of the stuff that’s still over my head, and keeps me invested in mastering the information at my current level.

[Richard_close2u]

@Stuartw
7 distinct notes in major scale.
17 scale tones (notes if you’re just chatting, not writing precise language) in the CAGED major scale patterns.

[judi]

@Richard_close2u Richard to the rescue again! Notes and tones, got it. Thank you. Now, don’t you have more pressing business to attend to?

[Stuartw]

@Richard_close2u

7 distinct notes in major scale.
17 scale tones (notes if you’re just chatting, not writing precise language) in the CAGED major scale patterns.

OK, but the note at B/1 can’t logically be a note C if the one at the root is a C because they sound different. Likewise all the F’s can’t be all F as they sound different.

[stitch]

@Stuartw have you ever looked at all the white keys on a piano? There are only 7 notes C D E F G A B then they repeat. The note names don’t change but the frequency of the sound of the notes change. This is why there is a C on the A string and B string. They are both C (root) notes of the C Major scale but an octave apart.

[MAT1953]

Stuart @Stuartw
This where you need to delve into the physics of what is going on, plenty of references on the web why two notes an octave apart sound similar, one simple explanation is below
Michael

[Richard_close2u]

@Stuartw

… the note at B/1 can’t logically be a note C if the one at the root is a C …

@MAT1953 has mentioned this already.
Doubling and halving is the logical arithmetic here.

The note we call C at fret 3 of the 5th string has a frequency of 130.8128Hz.

The note we call C at fret 1 of the 2nd string has a frequency of 261.6256Hz.

130.8128 x 2 = 261.6256

the note at B/1 can’t … be a note C if the one at the root is a C because they sound different …

They do sound different. Absolutely, categorically, unequivocally different. They sound different because they are at different frequencies. They are both called C because one of the rudimentary foundations of all western music is that octave tones are given the same letter name.

There is a way of distinguishing them from each other. It is the method of assigning octave tones a letter name with a numeric suffix.

Here is an 88-key piano with two of the notes picked out in colour.

There are eight sets of notes grouped together. Approximately eight octave sets. Sets one to seven inclusive are complete sets. Set zero and set eight are partial sets because there are insufficient keys to complete them.

Complete sets all start with the note / tone called C. Think of these complete sets as one circumnavigation around the Note Circle.

The cyan shows what is called ‘Middle C’ - because, roughly speaking, it is in the middle of the keyboard physically. Middle C is the first note of the fourth set. It is therefore, logically, called C4.

That is a universal convention. Middle C is called C4.

The yellow shows a note A whose frequency is 440Hz. Have you have heard of concert pitch A440 tuning? Some guitar tuners have this marked on them. It is the universally used baseline frequency for tuning instruments so they are in tune with one another. Electronic guitar tuners would use this by default. It is not the only possible tuning system but we continue without exploring that concept.

Hopefully you will be able to connect things together and make the small leap to know that the octave tone A above that shown yellow has a frequency of 880Hz and the one below has a frequency of 220Hz.

Within the C major scale at open position, the Middle C, called C4 remember, is found at fret 1 of the 2nd string. Which means the lowest root note of the scale pattern is the one an octave lower than C4. That particular scale pattern extends below and above those octaves (from E below the lowest octave to G above the highest octave).

All notes of that scale are shown on this diagram.

The scale runs (from lowest tone to highest tone) from E2 up to G4.

The root note at fret 3 of the 5th string is C3.
The root note at fret 1 of the 2nd string is C4.

Both of those root notes are called C.

That they sound different is certain.

But, if truly needed, there is a way of naming them differently so as to distinguish one from the other.

I hope that helps.

[Stuartw]

@stitch

have you ever looked at all the white keys on a piano?

To be honest no.

@stitch

This is why there is a C on the A string and B string. They are both C (root) notes of the C Major scale but an octave apart.

OK. I had to google octave as not sure what it meant (Thanks @MAT1953 for the screenshot). I originally thought that an octave was 12no. frets up the neck! Is that also an octave?

Essentially we have to accept that 2 notes that sound different have the same letter Doesn’t really make logical sense but who am I to argue with western music theory.

[BurnsRhythm]

@Stuartw
Hi Stuart
Richard and Michael have given you the theoretical explanations of how it works but there’s a way you can test it on guitar.

Play the open 3rd string then play the 1st string 3rd fret.
Those are both G notes, one octave apart.
To me they sound different yet the same. Different because one is higher than the other. The same because they sound very much alike.
You say they just sound different.

Now play the two notes together. Mute the 2nd string with your fretting finger. Strum across the strings like a chord.

Can you hear that although you’re playing two notes, it almost sounds like just one note?

Now do the same thing except this time play the 1st fret of the high e string and the open G
The two notes won’t sound anything like the same note at all.

You can do this all the way up the neck. Try the open G with every fret on the high e.
Only the G on the 3rd fret and the G on the 15th fret will sound almost like the same note.

Give it a whizz and let us know what you hear.

[MAT1953]

Stuart @Stuartw

If you don’t mind me saying you sound a bit like me at the beginning of last year when I started my guitar journey, my knowledge of music theory was zero, never had a music lesson in my life. Ok I knew the notes on lines of a stave, a bit of general knowledge, but what the notes were in the spaces, I hadn’t a clue.

I am inquisitive and the sort of person that needs to why I am doing something which is why I started on Justin’s Theory Course early on and it has opened my eyes to a whole new world. I probably at the position of a little knowledge being dangerous. Has it helped me strum better, probably not, but all the other things about playing the guitar, it certainly has.

If you have not had a look at Justin’s Theory Course I would encourage you to do so.

Michael

[Socio]

@Stuartw

I originally thought that an octave was 12no. frets up the neck! Is that also an octave?

An octave is 12 semitones higher than the root note - the equivalent of going all the way around the Note Circle and back to the same note.

[Richard_close2u]

@Stuartw

@stitch

have you ever looked at all the white keys on a piano?

@Stuartw

To be honest no.

Perhaps we were typing at the same time and you missed my post - which includes a keyboard.
Take a look at the repetition of it.
Start at C1.

White C
Black C# / Db
White D
Black D# / Eb
White E
White F
Black F# / Gb
White G
Black G# / Ab
White A
Black A# / Bb
White B
White C … where the pattern starts again.

Over and over for each and every 12 notes.

The C major scale does not use any black keys.

[Richard_close2u]

@MAT1953

If you have not had a look at Justin’s Theory Course I would encourage you to do so.

Stuart must be a subscriber to have received an invite to the live class.

[Majik]

@Stuartw

Essentially we have to accept that 2 notes that sound different have the same letter Doesn’t really make logical sense but who am I to argue with western music theory.

There is a logic to it. You just aren’t seeing (or, really, hearing) it yet.

Imagine if we had separate names for every single note that existed. Even if we limited it to a piano keyboard (and there are far more notes than that) we would have 88 individual note names.

Not only don’t we have enough letters in the alphabet, but there would be no relationship between any of the note names, which would make learning music a nightmare!

Now, that would be illogical.

As @Richard_close2u has pointed out, if you want to get really picky, then you can use the octave numbers to differentiate between C notes at different pitches: C1, C2, C3, and so on. We don’t do this in general because in most case it’s either obvious which C we are talking about, or it doesn’t matter.

And, no, they don’t sound identical, but there is an extremely strong relationship between the C notes: in music, all C notes perform the same function, which is why they are all called “C”.

For example: there’s lots of ways to play a C chord on a guitar. When a song’s harmony contains a C chord, you have a choice of C chords you can play and they will mostly sound different from each other, but they will all sound perfectly good. If you play any other chord, it will sound wrong.

That’s because, regardless of the octave they are in, the notes with the same note names perform the same function in music, which is why it’s totally logical to give them the same name.

Cheers,

Keith

[Stuartw]

Well that turned out to be a strange old day. After a good walk round the grounds of our local Natural Trust place we came home for my missus then to go A over T in our hall and spend the net few hours in A and E. She’s OK but bruised and in pain!

@Richard_close2u

Perhaps we were typing at the same time and you missed my post - which includes a keyboard.

I did see your post and hadn’t processed all the information provided.

I now understand about the frequency thing with that are an octave above/below have half/double the frequency and for convention have the same name, but sound different.

@Richard_close2u

Have you have heard of concert pitch A440 tuning?

No but having checked it shows on my guitar tuner.

@MAT1953

If you have not had a look at Justin’s Theory Course I would encourage you to do so.

As noted by @Richard_close2u I have subscribed to the PMT course and have competed module 3, but not really got much further.

@Majik

Imagine if we had separate names for every single note that existed. Even if we limited it to a piano keyboard (and there are far more notes than that) we would have 88 individual note names.

Not only don’t we have enough letters in the alphabet, but there would be no relationship between any of the note names, which would make learning music a nightmare!

Now, that would be illogical.

Agreed, and can see (now) the logic of not naming everything If you don’t ask you don’t find out!

@Majik

For example: there’s lots of ways to play a C chord on a guitar.

Noted but at this point I don’t know that many and guessing that there are loads that I don’t know or will ever know or use.

@Majik

That’s because, regardless of the octave they are in, the notes with the same note names perform the same function in music, which is why it’s totally logical to give them the same name.

I see that now.

Thanks to all who took the time to respond to my questions. Appreciated and you learn something new everyday.

[judi]

@Stuartw

we came home for my missus then to go A over T in our hall and spend the net few hours in A and E. She’s OK but bruised and in pain!

Oh dear, I’m sorry to hear that Stuart. I hope she mends quickly!
On another note - what an informative conversation you instigated. Thank you.

[MAT1953]

Stuart @Stuartw
Sorry to hear about your wife’s fall, hope she has a speedy recovery.
Michael

[Helen0609]

Stuart, sorry to hear about your wife’s fall. All the best for a speedy recovery!