Music theory question

in F#m the C is C#m and the E is diminished so with enough fudging you could probably make it what ever key you want it to be.
I rolled out of bed this morning checked the forum as I always do and read the post with the link to the song, listened to it picked up my guitar and that’s what I came up with in about 5 minutes. Haven’t listened to it since. I’m taking a break at work right now so will give it another listen when i get home.

Haha, well thank you. I presume someone should remove most of my ramblings here when a conclusion is reached, but it helps my thinking to ‘verbalise’ every now and again :laughing:

Had a few minutes to listen to the song again a few times.
The song is heavy with Brass and Bass so I think what your hearing is a lot of F# or F# power chord type sound. The bass player has a really good groove going on. So wander over to youtube found this bass cover. There are a few really good covers

I have watched two youtube videos that may be useful. An acoustic cover playing lots of extended chords and a piano cover with illuminated notes.

From the acoustic cover.

Intro and Chorus:
Emaj7 __ A#m7b5 __ Amaj7

Emaj7
Emaj7

A#m7b5

Amaj7

Verse:
Emaj7 → Dmaj7

Emaj7 → Cmaj7 → D7

Emaj7
Emaj7

Dmaj7
Dmaj7

Cmaj7
Cmaj7

D7

Analysing those chords:

Amaj7, A#m7b5, Cmaj7, Dmaj7, D7, Emaj7

Written as reduced triads:

A, A#dim, C, D, E

Let’s immediately see the A#dim as a chromatic passing chord and concentrate on the others. We then have the problem of four major chords in a progression. Or do we?

The verse and the chorus can be seen as separate progressions. The chorus is easiest, it bounces between an Emaj7 and an Amaj7 (with a passing A#dim). This could be in the key if E, boucing between I and IV chords (E and A respectively). Or it could be in the key of A, bouncing between V and I chords (E and A respectively). Given that the chorus spends more time on the Amaj7, and the chromatic diminished leads to it, I am more minded to go with it being the latter.

What of the Verse then? It has three major chords all two semitones apart. Emaj7 drops to Dmaj7 in the first half. Emaj7 drops to Cmaj7 in the second half. I do think it can be seen as being in the key of E major. E is prominent and feels like home. Both Dmaj7 and Cmaj7 feel like journeys away from the tonic. The riff too is based around the note E.

If we take E major as the key then Emaj7 = the I chord.
D maj7 = bVII
Cmaj7 = bVI
Both are borrowed chords.
Cmaj7 is borrowed from the parallel minor key of E minor.

Dmaj7 is not borrowed from there however.

In the key of E minor, an extended D major chord becomes D7 not Dmaj7. We have a brief appearance of a D7 so we have now explained it, but not the Dmaj7 - which is a right ‘pita’.

There might be a temptation to look at a bVII and think we are in fact not in E major but in E mixolydian. But if it was in E mixolydian, the E chord would not be Emaj7 it would be E7 so that cannot be the case. It is possible, however, to view the Dmaj7 as a chord borrowed from E mixolydian.

To summarise:

Chorus:

Either
I → IV in the key of E (Emaj7 → Amaj7) with a chromatic passing diminished chord
or
V → I in the key of A (Emaj7 → Amaj7) with a chromatic passing diminished chord

Verse:
I → bVII in the key of E (Emaj7 → Dmaj7)
followed by
I → bVI in the key of E (Emaj7 → Cmaj7)
plus
a passing D7 borrowed from the parallel key of E minor.

This is a song best enjoyed with the ears, and the ‘surprise’ that the borrowed chords bring, rather than providing a tasty theory snack. :slight_smile:

It does make me think that at some point my borrowed chord ramblings will migrate over to here.

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No worries, there’s certainly plenty of nice and knowledgeable people here!

It’s nice that the song doesn’t always have to be shackled to a key, but it can certainly make it a bit complicated to work out chords for a beginner.

My method to find chords would be - listen for the chord changes and find the root note for each chord and try to build it up from there. Surely that might work?

Always astonishes me how well you are able to break down the song to it’s bare bones Richard, a knowledge one can only dream of!

But in all fairness I wouldn’t be surprised if the artist picked some chords he/she liked, chopped them all together and never thought about what mode or key the song dances around :grinning:

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100%

100 + 1%

1000%

People do not sit around a table and theorise about their hit song before playing a chord or singing a note.

Bass notes and / or simple 2-string power chords can go a long way to figuring out the changes for sure. Use that method, it is a good one in most circumstances. Listen out for ‘surprises’. The sound of diatonic chord progressions is so well established in our ears from hearing thousands of songs that do the same thing.
When I first played this song from your link me years were yelling at me that something non-diatonic was happening, something unexpected and surprising. It was obvious at a casual listen. Not because I know stuff but because it didn’t sound like millions of others. Especially that drop to the C chord. That really stands out.

Addendum.

A#m7b5 contains the notes F# and C#. Playing an F# power chord means you are playing the notes F# and C#. This is a more than reasonable approximation to the A#m7b5. Especially if another instrument is playing an A# note.

Dmaj7 = F~min triad (notes F#, A, C#) plus the note D. This means playing F#m is almost a straight and simplified swap for Dmaj7. If a bass player or other instrument is playing the root note D then playing F#m will make it into a Dmaj7. And, this means that once again an F# power chord (neither minor nor major tonality) is a reasonable approximation of Dmaj7.

The UG tabs name a B minor chord where I have placed a Dmaj7. Let’s look at that.

Bm triad = B, D, F#
Dmaj7 = D, F#, A, C#
They have two notes in common. Does that make Bm a reasonable approximation for Dmaj7? Or vice verse? Well, yes, especially if the other instruments spell out more notes from the chord and the vocal melody touches them too.

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First off I agree with Stitch. I think the chords for the song are basically:

Intro E F#m A x4

Then E E D D
E E C C
E E C D

.
.
.

Outro E F#m A x 100

Then you can finish with an E chord to resolve it.

So, except for the C chord, it is using the I IV V and vi chords of the A major scale. These chords are commonly used together in songs. The non diatonic C could be considered a II#. And it’s used because, major chords sound good I suppose.

It’s essentially a I IV V song in A. But A is NOT the root/tonic of the song. The root note is E. Therefore I would look at it as essentially an E mixo song.

I have installed an IOS app called Chord AI. I’m not sure how it compares to other programmes of this type but it seems good to me. Much better than I could do. My ear for chords is not that great. The free version is very good. The paid version gives extended chords, chord voicings etc. I haven’t tried the paid version.
https://www.chordai.net/

Here is it’s analysis of a fair chunk of the song. It classifies it as A major. I would view this as A major being the parent major scale but the root note is E.

It is a slightly more complex analysis of the chords outlined in my previous post.

That looks pretty neat Matt, I see they have an android version too. Checking the site at the moment.
:sunglasses:

That does look good Matt. I just downloaded it onto android device and gave it a spin. I liked how you can set the capo position and that it shows the video along with the chords as the song plays. As well as change the tempo and loop. It’s a shame they don’t have a windows version. Though I suppose could just use an emulator.

Just dropped it onto my tablet. Very impressed with that Matt, especially the YouTube interaction. Also like the “piano roll” type display, similar to Riffstation. It would be interesting to compare accuracy between this and RS, as I am well aware of Riffstation’s short comings but it is getting on a bit and things have moved on considerably. Will have a mess around this evening and play along to see how good it is.

Seems like it could do with a mention here
what-software-do-you-use-for-transcription

:sunglasses:

Thanks for the feedback Toby. I’d be interested to know what you think of it’s accuracy. I just played around with speed and loop settings and they work well.

I’m just happy to hear my old ear can still be used to figure out music I’ve never heard before.

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Yeah but that’s the difference. Your old ears have been listening for way over half a century and picking this stuff out, while mine where effectively dormant (musically) for the same period. Ok probably listened to a lot of the same stuff but for all that time I was just enjoying and not trying to figure things out, unlike the young Stitch I would suggest. But like its never too late to rock n roll its never too late to learn. But the new gizmos do help old ears, well mine anyway! :metal:

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Young Toby

Young Stitch

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LMAO, glad I just put the coffee down ! But I’m am being a good old boy and cycling through my lick library this afternoon. Making up for lost time ! Be good. :sunglasses:

image

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