Music theory question

At the top of the page in the UG link it states it is in the Key of C, why did you think E?.
I would suggest the use of F# in that Key represents a Modal Interchange. Ie it is a chord that does not come from the diatonic chords of C Major or its relative minor scale A minor.

:sunglasses:

OK not knowing the song I downloaded it and ran it through Riffstation which not always 100% accurate but I would suggest that tab is wrong. Riffstation shows D#m not F# in the intro and chorus and D in the verse not Bm.

Those with better ears than me will be able to confirm these differences in the tab. :sunglasses:

Actually, none of the chords in the progression, except for the C, are diatonic in the key of C. So, I donā€™t think itā€™s in C, despite whatā€™s written on the UG page.

Yes I agree John, momentary lapse of attention blinded by that F#.
Riiffstation puts the chords out as

Intro/Chorus
E D#m A
Verse
E D
E A
E C
E C D
If that helps.
And that doesnā€™t fall into any diatonic pattern either.:sunglasses:

I think the UG chords are wrong.
Analysis later.

Stop the pressesā€¦noo, UG is wrongā€¦that never happens :lying_face:ā€¦okay, I didnā€™t check this one, but you can use that site just fine for the lyrics, but for chords and keys you really have to use your own brain ā€¦ or those from Justins-team(tabs) ā€¦ or (?)ā€¦ but you absolutely can not rely on ultimate guitarā€¦
Greetings,Rogier

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I used my ears and came up with.
E F#m A x4

E D x2
E C x2
E C D
There some embellishments going on but I have to go to work.

Rick - That fits, I suspect as usual Riffstation is in error. Just played the intro with D#m yuk. Sounds better with F#m. Go with your ears. :sunglasses:

@Wolfaz Alex after all this nobody welcomed you to the Community.
So welcome to the Forum hope we helped you out with the song.

The Intro and Chorus is a I ii IV in the key of E
The Verse is using the IV(C) V(D) of Em why just because it sound good.
Sometimes what works musically does make sense Theoretically.
Iā€™m sure Richard will have a better explanation.

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If the chords you hear are correct, Rick, wouldnā€™t they all fit nicely into the key of F# minor (f#)?
(Well, all except the 5th degree, which I thought in minor keys was often played as a 7 chord or major (c# becoming C)?
My problem is that I do hear F# (major) in the chorus :roll_eyes:
At 3.09 and 3.14 the singer also sings the note A# which is part of F# but not F# min (f#), which would contain A.
As to the D vs Bm debate, both sounded fine to my untrained ears when playing them. (I guess Iā€™m just hearing the D and F# notes)
Also I donā€™t hear F# as the ā€˜homeā€™ note. Is that necessary for something to be in a certain key?

in F#m the C is C#m and the E is diminished so with enough fudging you could probably make it what ever key you want it to be.
I rolled out of bed this morning checked the forum as I always do and read the post with the link to the song, listened to it picked up my guitar and thatā€™s what I came up with in about 5 minutes. Havenā€™t listened to it since. Iā€™m taking a break at work right now so will give it another listen when i get home.

Haha, well thank you. I presume someone should remove most of my ramblings here when a conclusion is reached, but it helps my thinking to ā€˜verbaliseā€™ every now and again :laughing:

Had a few minutes to listen to the song again a few times.
The song is heavy with Brass and Bass so I think what your hearing is a lot of F# or F# power chord type sound. The bass player has a really good groove going on. So wander over to youtube found this bass cover. There are a few really good covers

I have watched two youtube videos that may be useful. An acoustic cover playing lots of extended chords and a piano cover with illuminated notes.

From the acoustic cover.

Intro and Chorus:
Emaj7 __ A#m7b5 __ Amaj7

Emaj7
Emaj7

A#m7b5

Amaj7

Verse:
Emaj7 ā†’ Dmaj7

Emaj7 ā†’ Cmaj7 ā†’ D7

Emaj7
Emaj7

Dmaj7
Dmaj7

Cmaj7
Cmaj7

D7

Analysing those chords:

Amaj7, A#m7b5, Cmaj7, Dmaj7, D7, Emaj7

Written as reduced triads:

A, A#dim, C, D, E

Letā€™s immediately see the A#dim as a chromatic passing chord and concentrate on the others. We then have the problem of four major chords in a progression. Or do we?

The verse and the chorus can be seen as separate progressions. The chorus is easiest, it bounces between an Emaj7 and an Amaj7 (with a passing A#dim). This could be in the key if E, boucing between I and IV chords (E and A respectively). Or it could be in the key of A, bouncing between V and I chords (E and A respectively). Given that the chorus spends more time on the Amaj7, and the chromatic diminished leads to it, I am more minded to go with it being the latter.

What of the Verse then? It has three major chords all two semitones apart. Emaj7 drops to Dmaj7 in the first half. Emaj7 drops to Cmaj7 in the second half. I do think it can be seen as being in the key of E major. E is prominent and feels like home. Both Dmaj7 and Cmaj7 feel like journeys away from the tonic. The riff too is based around the note E.

If we take E major as the key then Emaj7 = the I chord.
D maj7 = bVII
Cmaj7 = bVI
Both are borrowed chords.
Cmaj7 is borrowed from the parallel minor key of E minor.

Dmaj7 is not borrowed from there however.

In the key of E minor, an extended D major chord becomes D7 not Dmaj7. We have a brief appearance of a D7 so we have now explained it, but not the Dmaj7 - which is a right ā€˜pitaā€™.

There might be a temptation to look at a bVII and think we are in fact not in E major but in E mixolydian. But if it was in E mixolydian, the E chord would not be Emaj7 it would be E7 so that cannot be the case. It is possible, however, to view the Dmaj7 as a chord borrowed from E mixolydian.

To summarise:

Chorus:

Either
I ā†’ IV in the key of E (Emaj7 ā†’ Amaj7) with a chromatic passing diminished chord
or
V ā†’ I in the key of A (Emaj7 ā†’ Amaj7) with a chromatic passing diminished chord

Verse:
I ā†’ bVII in the key of E (Emaj7 ā†’ Dmaj7)
followed by
I ā†’ bVI in the key of E (Emaj7 ā†’ Cmaj7)
plus
a passing D7 borrowed from the parallel key of E minor.

This is a song best enjoyed with the ears, and the ā€˜surpriseā€™ that the borrowed chords bring, rather than providing a tasty theory snack. :slight_smile:

It does make me think that at some point my borrowed chord ramblings will migrate over to here.

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No worries, thereā€™s certainly plenty of nice and knowledgeable people here!

Itā€™s nice that the song doesnā€™t always have to be shackled to a key, but it can certainly make it a bit complicated to work out chords for a beginner.

My method to find chords would be - listen for the chord changes and find the root note for each chord and try to build it up from there. Surely that might work?

Always astonishes me how well you are able to break down the song to itā€™s bare bones Richard, a knowledge one can only dream of!

But in all fairness I wouldnā€™t be surprised if the artist picked some chords he/she liked, chopped them all together and never thought about what mode or key the song dances around :grinning:

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100%

100 + 1%

1000%

People do not sit around a table and theorise about their hit song before playing a chord or singing a note.

Bass notes and / or simple 2-string power chords can go a long way to figuring out the changes for sure. Use that method, it is a good one in most circumstances. Listen out for ā€˜surprisesā€™. The sound of diatonic chord progressions is so well established in our ears from hearing thousands of songs that do the same thing.
When I first played this song from your link me years were yelling at me that something non-diatonic was happening, something unexpected and surprising. It was obvious at a casual listen. Not because I know stuff but because it didnā€™t sound like millions of others. Especially that drop to the C chord. That really stands out.

Addendum.

A#m7b5 contains the notes F# and C#. Playing an F# power chord means you are playing the notes F# and C#. This is a more than reasonable approximation to the A#m7b5. Especially if another instrument is playing an A# note.

Dmaj7 = F~min triad (notes F#, A, C#) plus the note D. This means playing F#m is almost a straight and simplified swap for Dmaj7. If a bass player or other instrument is playing the root note D then playing F#m will make it into a Dmaj7. And, this means that once again an F# power chord (neither minor nor major tonality) is a reasonable approximation of Dmaj7.

The UG tabs name a B minor chord where I have placed a Dmaj7. Letā€™s look at that.

Bm triad = B, D, F#
Dmaj7 = D, F#, A, C#
They have two notes in common. Does that make Bm a reasonable approximation for Dmaj7? Or vice verse? Well, yes, especially if the other instruments spell out more notes from the chord and the vocal melody touches them too.

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First off I agree with Stitch. I think the chords for the song are basically:

Intro E F#m A x4

Then E E D D
E E C C
E E C D

.
.
.

Outro E F#m A x 100

Then you can finish with an E chord to resolve it.

So, except for the C chord, it is using the I IV V and vi chords of the A major scale. These chords are commonly used together in songs. The non diatonic C could be considered a II#. And itā€™s used because, major chords sound good I suppose.

Itā€™s essentially a I IV V song in A. But A is NOT the root/tonic of the song. The root note is E. Therefore I would look at it as essentially an E mixo song.