Peer pressure & sharing recordings

[LievenDV]

It is true that there is a lot of encouragement to share. Sometimes in the more literal fashion when it comes to “requst recordings”. I’m around since the beginning of Justin’s forums and I never had the feeling it was “too much” but I understand your perspective that some things can be seen as a peer pressure that goes too far for some peoples comfort.

My expecation now is that we can gradually take off the weight and impact of the words being written here. There is no need for assumptions about other peoples common sense but your opinion IS a valid one that we will certainly keep in mind. (at least I will!)

I’m glad you share your impression with us and we should be careful with expecations and peer pressure. In a social construct like thisand many others, it is an interesting phenomenon but it could be a step towards toxicity; an issue that plaged many communities before this one.

We encourage to SHARE.
Sharing also means;
what question is bothering you?
what frustration is blocking you?
what new gear are you dreaming of?
will you show us your new guitar? how does it sound?

Over recent years, we noticed the trend that people tend to be sharing more videos, even as beginner. It became more affordable and easy but it is also enabled by the mentality. It seems that more people began to see this Community as a space place where they can be theirselves without toxic attitudes and we are particulary proud of that.

Many are comfortable with sharing and even go on the Open Mic with it.
Others don’t liek to share video’s but just vent what they feel or think on their terms.
All of that is ok of course.
But as said, I don’t think we are currently on a level of peer pressure where we are scaring people away on an alarming rate. That doesn’t mean the “peer pressure” level is 0%. nothing is even black or white

Thanks to your explicit statement, my alertness about this subject went up a notch.

That all said, I’m almost certain all that was said comes from non-toxic perspectives en mindsets so we should go and not take offense in each others writing. I’m keeping an eye on this thread though

[Socio]

@direvus

I did think the comment in question had a very negative tone, and it did hit me as mildly insulting.

I would be more insulted if the comment said that we had no common sense. That being said an Albert Einstein quote comes to mind “common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by the age of eighteen”. The one thing that this community does not have is prejudices, this is a very welcoming community with members from all walks of life.

I agree it could have been better worded especially when the context of the English language can be taken the wrong way in the absence of tone. I think what David was really meaning to say was to be a bit more sensitive in the introduction posts e.g. get to know those joining the community first before encouraging sharing recordings as some may find it a bit overwhelming due to their personal circumstances. Looking back at my introductory post there was no mention of sharing a recording back then so either it is a kind of new thing to say in an introductory post or nobody wanted to hear me play.

@Kasper

commending self recording is definitely something I personally can get behind, although when exactly to start doing it or whether or not to post it or only use it for self evaluation is something up to each individual.

I completely agree with @Kasper. I think he words it very well. This is something that I would have started doing earlier in the learning process if someone had said that to me in my introductory post. A fantastic bit of advice to a new learner from someone at such a professional level of playing.

@LievenDV

I don’t think we are currently on a level of peer pressure where we are scaring people away on an alarming rate.

I completely agree with @LievenDV as the suggestions/recommendations to post recordings are done in an enthusiastic friendly manner and in most cases where the OP is looking for help to progress or overcome issues they are experiencing. The key words “when you feel ready” are used in most instances as the members of the community understand how daunting it can be to post your first recording.

I think the below response to a question raised that inspired me to do an AVOYP is a good testament to this community especially the last sentence.

@DavidP

if a suitable teacher is not available then I think the way to fill that gap is through posting video recordings in #all-about-your-music.

And if you highlight that you really really do want all the constructive feedback that points out shortcomings in posture and technique then there are folk in the Community who are able to provide that feedback.

I emphasised the “really” since here Replies in AVOYP do tend to amplify positives, and not highlight shortcomings as we tend to err on the side of sensitivity, being encouraging and supportive, given the degree of vulnerability present when people getting started post recordings.

[roger_holland]

@Socio

I would be more insulted if

Hi James,
It was about the first version of this story in another thread to which Brendan, Kasper and I are responding … although I still don’t think this version is really nice constructive criticism …
Greetings,Rogier

Edit:
Hi @Socio ,I’ll answer you this way to keep it a little clearer…this sentence below here… was in the other thread…and that’s the bad version of what you mean…Right?
“but they don’t seem to have the sense they were born with!”

[Socio]

Hi Rogier - Yes I understand that my good friend but what I am saying is that if someone says you lack common sense or have no common sense then they are point blank calling you an idiot. I would have been more upset if it had been phrased that way. I agree that its a poor choice of words and could have been phrased in a nicer manner but I don’t think there was any intentional malice in it. Now let’s all have a cup of tea and some cake

Edit:
Hi @roger_holland then that is a different kettle of fish and I can see why people could become easily offended with the remark. However, all I would say is rise above the comment unless you want to get down with the blues

[sclay]

Sharing your music, either via AVOYP or OM is obviously a personal choice in the end. While it’s encouraged here, due to its many benefits, it’s not for everyone, and that’s perfectly fine.
Recording your own playing for self analysis however, is extremely beneficial. It will highlight areas hidden from you, and alert you to possible issues with core things like technique, rhythm etc. It can be confronting, but like most things in life, growth and discomfort are often friends for a little while.
In the end, I imagine we all play guitar essentially for the fun of it. How you get there and stay there I suppose is an ongoing journey that is unique to each individual.
Wonderful community here, full of great people. Rock on everyone.

Cheers, Shane

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

This is the fourth time of replying to the OPs comments and my desire to avoid any kind of flame war, which is something this Community does not tolerate.

All I can say is that one man’s encouragement, is another man’s pushing. Its all about perspective. I think all people are trying to do is share their experiences and help other learn from the positives. Its part of Justin’s paying it forward message. I remind you what Richard say’s here Record Yourself - Progress & Performance: Rules & Etiquette. Important Notice

We are all here to learn to play guitar. To become better in our playing. To have fun.
And we have an amazing community spirit here of ‘paying it forward’. What we learn we pass on to those taking the same footsteps we once took. And this area is designed to welcome and to help everyone who wants to join in with this sharing ethos.

Many new folk arrive at the Community via a question they have asked regarding a lesson or potentially a PMT Test Score they have shared or a high 5 that was great Justin post. They drop into the Community by default now, even if they either had no desire to join or even knew of its existence. (My thoughts on that are not for this topic.) So many really do not have a clue about what happens here and not through there own fault and may enquire how do the get involved.

Taking way the topics that are lesson related, that generally leaves the social areas, gear etc and recording. Given that recording and sharing is a extremely valuable learning experience, it makes sense that “newbies” would be encouraged to do so. And in newbies I mean folks new to the Community, as it is not just raw beginners arriving here.

Regardless of that I personally think the sooner you start recording and sharing, the quicker your development and regret not doing it sooner when I rocked up here in 2013. So I think all people are doing its to share best practices to help others develop.

Even being aware that the AOVYP section exists, will be an encouragement to beginners to see what other folk are doing and what is achievable. But I always think when it comes to posting, it should be when the student is ready and their choice.

I certainly do not see the Community as “pushing” folk into recording, this almost suggest to me that each individual who is encouraged to do so, is then hounded by the forum but hey its about semantics.

I think there is also a problem in not viewing this as replies to individual posters and maybe looking at the replies across the board collectively which to my mind blows it out of proportion, of all this pushing going on. But that’s my perspective.

I also think its ironic that the Another new member checking in poster was happy with the recommendation. So I guess that take’s me full circle, one man’s encouragement is another man’s pushing.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

OK FWIW

I have just read back through Jenny’s post and see nothing to indicate anyone was pushing her into sharing recordings here (and here is not THE internet). Most of the comments suggest recording for your own benefit, to be able to compare with originals, see and hear where you may be making mistakes (timing muffed chords). There are “suggestions” about sharing and a number of the posters actually indicate that it was “when you are ready”. I can only assume the OP has not read these posts in the context they were written and their view is a generalisation based on what has been suggested to pretty much every new forum member in all the time I have been here, getting on for 10 years.

No pressure, just suggestions and encouragement. I do not every recall ever seeing the expression “you must record and post in AOVYP” that is pushing. Everything I read in that post from Jenny is supportive and nurturing and the OPs comment there sticks out like a sore thumb.

I see no evidence of anyone being pressed ganged in to posting audio or video anywhere. If you don’t want to do it or are not ready to do it, great. Just be aware that there is a vehicle available to do so when you are ready and be aware of the benefits it will bring. And highlighting the fact just takes me back to Justin’s core ethos of Paying It Forward.

Back to the family holiday.

[SDKissFan]

I whole heartedly agree Toby. I try to welcome the new members with words of encouragement. Nobody is required to record themselves, but I think it is helpful to record yourself even if you are the only one to ever see it. I look back at my videos from last year and say, " wow I sounded awful", so glad I have improved since then. I post videos, but not all of them. I keep some of them to myself, esp if I am on camera swearing at myself for the mistakes I make. When I do post videos I find the feedback to be tactful and never offensive. Nobody here is polishing a grammy for best new album in 2022, so I look at it like that…end of rant

[stitch]

I think welcoming people to the forum is like meeting someone for the first time. We all know that person who likes to hug people and doesn’t take into consideration that not everyone likes to hug strangers. So they throw open their arm and approach said stranger like they are old friend then get offended when said stranger doesn’t return the hug or simply steps back.

I suggest it might be a good idea to welcome new members with more of a hand shake and suggest recording as a tool to help with the learning process and maybe go and listen to the beginner in the Safe Zone as a gentle nudge rather than posting links to AVOYP and telling them to post videos.
Just my take on the matter

[Socio]

@TheMadman_tobyjenner makes a great point about how a lot of people have joined the community recently to ask questions. There were quite a few app users that were not even aware of the website lessons. Just a suggestion… would it be worth having a standard welcoming post giving a bit of a run down on the website (i.e. link to lesson map, key information etc) and a run down on the forum (e.g. how it works, safe space, AVOYP, OM, useful posts to read when starting out etc). So a bit of a welcome and a tour of the place.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

James thank you, that was something I raised during beta testing and made a similar suggestion.

[stitch]

It sounds like a good idea but you run the risk of the first thing a new member sees is a cold auto response. Where now they get a warm friendly reply form a real person. Could there be a way where the auto response reply’s after 3 or 4 real person responses. Or we could just drop that job on James and Toby.

[Socio]

I was thinking more of having a locked off post with all the key information. And when you welcome the person for the first time you can say take your time to settle in and explore the place. See the following post for some really useful information on the website and forum.

There is a lot of great responses to the same frequently asked questions on the forum. So a lot of the information can be copied on to a single post.

I don’t mind drafting something up and sending over to Toby for review before passing onto the moderators for their approval.

[BurnsRhythm]

Hello all, thank you for your comments. I welcome all comments, good, bad or indifferent.

I live in a world where people are not easily offended and the phrase ‘not having the common sense you were born with’ is one that I’ve known all my life. It’s very rarely given as an insult and very rarely taken as an insult. In fact it’s quite often given and taken with a lot of humour.
I now realise that it’s use like this is maybe not as widespread as I thought it was and on reflection my use of it in the community was wrong.

I apologise for causing any offence, insult, ill feeling or seeming to bring some toxicity to the community. It was never my intention to cause any of that.

Unfortunately all of this has detracted from my reason for this topic. I stand by everything I’ve said about the pushing of recordings. I truly believe that it will already have pushed some away from the community and could be preventing others from joining.

I know it’s only one view, but it’s a view I’ve formed from being a beginner and relatively new in the community. Most of you on this topic have been here for quite awhile and so maybe can’t see it from my, or others, perspective.

Anyhow, at least it’s brought about some discussion and brought it to the community’s attention.

@LievenDV
Lieven, you seem to understand my reasons for this topic.
I hope you and the rest of the team continue to develop the community into a place for all Justin’s students.
As the community grows it will have to adapt, change, evolve, to accommodate everyone and I hope the issue I’ve raised here will in some way help towards that evolution.

🎸 David

[Socio]

Hi David, it’s all water under a bridge to me. Life’s is too short for nursing animosity or registering wrongs. I’m glad that you have recognised that your choice of words was somewhat misplaced and offerered a sincere apology to anyone that they may have offended by them. Everyones view in the community is important and when things are not feeling right for someone its important to understand whats making that person feel that way. We have some great moderators in this community whom I’m sure would be more than happy for anyone to reach out to them if they had any issues. Now back to some guitar practice

[Goffik]

@BurnsRhythm

I live in a world where people are not easily offended and the phrase ‘not having the common sense you were born with’ is one that I’ve known all my life. It’s very rarely given as an insult and very rarely taken as an insult. In fact it’s quite often given and taken with a lot of humour.

Which for me highlights something few seem to have mentioned yet… that we are not all from the same country, region, culture, etc. If there’s one thing I’ve learnt in nearly 30 years of online communities, it’s that you shouldn’t take anything said on a forum at face value. English is often not the first language of the poster, and things may not translate exactly as they intend from their own language. Or, as in this case, something which is perfectly normal in their own culture may be seen as offensive to another. Nobody can be expected to know exactly how everything works outside the bubble of their own lives, so a little tolerance and investigation is required before getting bent out of shape by comments we don’t like, to determine the true meaning.

@BurnsRhythm

I stand by everything I’ve said about the pushing of recordings. I truly believe that it will already have pushed some away from the community and could be preventing others from joining.

I’m afraid that I simply don’t agree with this. It may be true that a tiny, tiny number of people have seen recording suggestions/requests and then abandoned the community as a result. But I believe that the other 99.99% are perfectly capable of taking suggestions/requests in their stride, and deciding for themselves if and when they are ready to share their videos.

We can’t have a rule banning the suggestion of recordings in a guitar-based community, nor can we provide pre-determined phrases for people to use that ensure absolutely no obligation is in any way implied to those of a hyper-sensitive nature. At the end of the day nothing will “work” for 100% of people, which is why 99% is usually the best you can hope for.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

@BurnsRhythm

I live in a world where people are not easily offended and the phrase ‘not having the common sense you were born with’ is one that I’ve known all my life. It’s very rarely given as an insult and very rarely taken as an insult. In fact it’s quite often given and taken with a lot of humour.

Interesting statement and I am not easily offended but as someone who lived in the UK for 55 years but not in your region, this would always be taken as an insult. I would always take this as meaning I am an idiot and I worked and lived in many UK regions. But thank you for apologising.

[Socio]

Not a saying that I’ve really come across. Though I’d say there are a lot of sayings that you’d say to people you know that could be considered as an insult if they didn’t know you were saying it in jest. And that really comes down to the tone being used. That being said its best not to say anything that could be taken the wrong way unless you know for certain that they will take it in jest.

[DavidP]

@Socio @TheMadman_tobyjenner

@Socio

would it be worth having a standard welcoming post giving a bit of a run down on the website (i.e. link to lesson map, key information etc) and a run down on the forum (e.g. how it works, safe space, AVOYP, OM, useful posts to read when starting out etc). So a bit of a welcome and a tour of the place.

@TheMadman_tobyjenner

James thank you, that was something I raised during beta testing and made a similar suggestion.

The Team is busy cooking something up to address this need.

[BurnsRhythm]

@Goffik
Hi Ross.
Your first and last paragraphs go from one extreme to the other, from leaving it as it is to a ban on suggestions for recordings.
A ban is out of the question and is not what I’m calling for.
You say 99% is the best we can hope for, but I think a 100% solution can be found somewhere in between the two extremes.

The problem I have with the current way is that these suggestions for recordings are usually seen in isolation. When they are seen all over the community again and again and again it’s that collective that turns the suggestion into a push. The feeling isn’t that any one person is pushing or that any one person is being pushed, it’s a feeling of the community pushing all of us to post recordings.

If those very same recording suggestions were seen together with suggestions for other aspects of the community, then the recording suggestions wouldn’t stand out and the feeling would then be that the community was encouraging us to find the aspects which suit us.

In @DavidP ‘s post he tells us that the team are working on something and if it was something like @Socio ‘s highlighted suggestion then the community could work with that in their posts and that 100% solution in between could be found.

The team can only do so much and then it’s up to the community to find a way. I think the community can do it.

🎸 David