Peer pressure & sharing recordings

[BurnsRhythm]

@roger_holland
Hi Rogier,
This is my reply to your comment about my post on the introduction topic - Another new member checking in
I don’t think it’s appropriate to reply on that topic but I think my reply should be seen by the community rather than a PM to you as it’s about the community and not you in particular.

My reply to you
You’re taking my comment out of context and missing my point.
It isn’t about the merits or otherwise of recording. Its about the constant call for recordings, the constant pushing of people to post recordings that is seen all over the community from various members.
Posting recordings on the internet is the last thing a beginner who is duffing up chords and strumming wants to do and when they see this constant pushing it drives them away from the community which is a shame because recording is just one aspect among many in this fantastic community.
My comment, which you highlighted, is because I think some members are not using their common sense to realise that this is, or could be happening.

My apologies if I’ve upset you. I have no wish to upset anyone.
I hope you can now see why I said what I said.

David

[CT]

Question everything --that’s punk, rock, and even country music. I think asking for a recording should be a part of troubleshooting an issue or maybe letting someone know that the thing weighing on their mind is no big deal.

I’m not taking sides. Yes, folks here need to self-assess whether or not they are pushing recording too hard. Every message board community has their quirks. Hang in there, this is a good community.

[Stuartw]

Even though I have been doing this thing for a couple of years now I have not recorded my self for my own use never mind uploading here or YT. Just not that bothered with it to be honest. I can tell when things are not going OK.

Saying that there I have noticed that there is a constant request to post recordings which I’m sure are done for the right reasons which is to provide help and advice, which if you are new can only be a good things. No one should feel forced into posting recordings of themselves.

[roger_holland]

@BurnsRhythm

because I think some members are not using their common sense to realise that this is, or could be happening.

Hi David,
It’s just this sentence that I really don’t like…I can take it well and it takes a lot more to upset me, although now it may come across that I feel attacked… .but I stand up for all those others and especially the newer people who encourage others to step over their shadow…And maybe this is such a translation thing what @brianlarsen ( then correct me Brian) means and it really isn’t at all very irritated from your side, but in my language area this is quite an insult,…and I’m not used to that here…And responding reply via PM was meant to Jenny to let her know at ease if she did indeed become uncomfortable with the “pressure” to make a recording sooner or later,…but as we have read she had no problems at all with it…I just hope very much that others in that thread do not feel too addressed and feel free to continue to encourage enthusiastically,…that’s all,…I have experienced so much in life that this are definitely not upset me ,…if an elephant needs a skin graft, he knocks on my door… so no one ever has to worry about that…
Greetings ,Rogier

[direvus]

For what it’s worth, I did think the comment in question had a very negative tone, and it did hit me as mildly insulting. Not the point where I was going to kick up a fuss about it but I understand where @roger_holland is coming from here.

I also understand David’s point of view, and I get that his intention was to protect a newcomer from what he thought was an overbearing approach on the recording thing. It’s a very noble intention. But, an insult is still an insult, and I don’t there is any other way to look at “don’t have the sense they were born with” except as an insult.

I was certainly one of the people who was recommending self-recording in that thread, but I don’t believe that my suggestions were overbearing, and I think Jenny’s reply to me confirms that she took it in good stride.

Anyhow, that’s just my $0.02. I’m not really that upset but, like Rogier, the comment did catch my eye and I did not have a good feeling about it.

[LievenDV]

**Admin notice; **
@BurnsRhythm I changed the name of this topic since it is a valid conversation but needed a better label than the generic title it had.

[Kasper]

@direvus

For what it’s worth, I did think the comment in question had a very negative tone, and it did hit me as mildly insulting. Not the point where I was going to kick up a fuss about it but I understand where @roger_holland is coming from here.

Same here…

I wasn’t really following or taking part in that particular thread, but when I read over it and saw that reply I also went “Wow, that’s harsh… he basically just wrote that we’re all idiots…”

All in all not the best choice of words IMO, especially not when discussing something that is a matter of opinion. And recommending self recording is definitely something I personally can get behind, although when exactly to start doing it or whether or not to post it or only use it for self evaluation is something up to each individual.

[LievenDV]

It is true that there is a lot of encouragement to share. Sometimes in the more literal fashion when it comes to “requst recordings”. I’m around since the beginning of Justin’s forums and I never had the feeling it was “too much” but I understand your perspective that some things can be seen as a peer pressure that goes too far for some peoples comfort.

My expecation now is that we can gradually take off the weight and impact of the words being written here. There is no need for assumptions about other peoples common sense but your opinion IS a valid one that we will certainly keep in mind. (at least I will!)

I’m glad you share your impression with us and we should be careful with expecations and peer pressure. In a social construct like thisand many others, it is an interesting phenomenon but it could be a step towards toxicity; an issue that plaged many communities before this one.

We encourage to SHARE.
Sharing also means;
what question is bothering you?
what frustration is blocking you?
what new gear are you dreaming of?
will you show us your new guitar? how does it sound?

Over recent years, we noticed the trend that people tend to be sharing more videos, even as beginner. It became more affordable and easy but it is also enabled by the mentality. It seems that more people began to see this Community as a space place where they can be theirselves without toxic attitudes and we are particulary proud of that.

Many are comfortable with sharing and even go on the Open Mic with it.
Others don’t liek to share video’s but just vent what they feel or think on their terms.
All of that is ok of course.
But as said, I don’t think we are currently on a level of peer pressure where we are scaring people away on an alarming rate. That doesn’t mean the “peer pressure” level is 0%. nothing is even black or white

Thanks to your explicit statement, my alertness about this subject went up a notch.

That all said, I’m almost certain all that was said comes from non-toxic perspectives en mindsets so we should go and not take offense in each others writing. I’m keeping an eye on this thread though

[Socio]

@direvus

I did think the comment in question had a very negative tone, and it did hit me as mildly insulting.

I would be more insulted if the comment said that we had no common sense. That being said an Albert Einstein quote comes to mind “common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by the age of eighteen”. The one thing that this community does not have is prejudices, this is a very welcoming community with members from all walks of life.

I agree it could have been better worded especially when the context of the English language can be taken the wrong way in the absence of tone. I think what David was really meaning to say was to be a bit more sensitive in the introduction posts e.g. get to know those joining the community first before encouraging sharing recordings as some may find it a bit overwhelming due to their personal circumstances. Looking back at my introductory post there was no mention of sharing a recording back then so either it is a kind of new thing to say in an introductory post or nobody wanted to hear me play.

@Kasper

commending self recording is definitely something I personally can get behind, although when exactly to start doing it or whether or not to post it or only use it for self evaluation is something up to each individual.

I completely agree with @Kasper. I think he words it very well. This is something that I would have started doing earlier in the learning process if someone had said that to me in my introductory post. A fantastic bit of advice to a new learner from someone at such a professional level of playing.

@LievenDV

I don’t think we are currently on a level of peer pressure where we are scaring people away on an alarming rate.

I completely agree with @LievenDV as the suggestions/recommendations to post recordings are done in an enthusiastic friendly manner and in most cases where the OP is looking for help to progress or overcome issues they are experiencing. The key words “when you feel ready” are used in most instances as the members of the community understand how daunting it can be to post your first recording.

I think the below response to a question raised that inspired me to do an AVOYP is a good testament to this community especially the last sentence.

@DavidP

if a suitable teacher is not available then I think the way to fill that gap is through posting video recordings in #all-about-your-music.

And if you highlight that you really really do want all the constructive feedback that points out shortcomings in posture and technique then there are folk in the Community who are able to provide that feedback.

I emphasised the “really” since here Replies in AVOYP do tend to amplify positives, and not highlight shortcomings as we tend to err on the side of sensitivity, being encouraging and supportive, given the degree of vulnerability present when people getting started post recordings.

[roger_holland]

@Socio

I would be more insulted if

Hi James,
It was about the first version of this story in another thread to which Brendan, Kasper and I are responding … although I still don’t think this version is really nice constructive criticism …
Greetings,Rogier

Edit:
Hi @Socio ,I’ll answer you this way to keep it a little clearer…this sentence below here… was in the other thread…and that’s the bad version of what you mean…Right?
“but they don’t seem to have the sense they were born with!”

[Socio]

Hi Rogier - Yes I understand that my good friend but what I am saying is that if someone says you lack common sense or have no common sense then they are point blank calling you an idiot. I would have been more upset if it had been phrased that way. I agree that its a poor choice of words and could have been phrased in a nicer manner but I don’t think there was any intentional malice in it. Now let’s all have a cup of tea and some cake

Edit:
Hi @roger_holland then that is a different kettle of fish and I can see why people could become easily offended with the remark. However, all I would say is rise above the comment unless you want to get down with the blues

[sclay]

Sharing your music, either via AVOYP or OM is obviously a personal choice in the end. While it’s encouraged here, due to its many benefits, it’s not for everyone, and that’s perfectly fine.
Recording your own playing for self analysis however, is extremely beneficial. It will highlight areas hidden from you, and alert you to possible issues with core things like technique, rhythm etc. It can be confronting, but like most things in life, growth and discomfort are often friends for a little while.
In the end, I imagine we all play guitar essentially for the fun of it. How you get there and stay there I suppose is an ongoing journey that is unique to each individual.
Wonderful community here, full of great people. Rock on everyone.

Cheers, Shane

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

This is the fourth time of replying to the OPs comments and my desire to avoid any kind of flame war, which is something this Community does not tolerate.

All I can say is that one man’s encouragement, is another man’s pushing. Its all about perspective. I think all people are trying to do is share their experiences and help other learn from the positives. Its part of Justin’s paying it forward message. I remind you what Richard say’s here Record Yourself - Progress & Performance: Rules & Etiquette. Important Notice

We are all here to learn to play guitar. To become better in our playing. To have fun.
And we have an amazing community spirit here of ‘paying it forward’. What we learn we pass on to those taking the same footsteps we once took. And this area is designed to welcome and to help everyone who wants to join in with this sharing ethos.

Many new folk arrive at the Community via a question they have asked regarding a lesson or potentially a PMT Test Score they have shared or a high 5 that was great Justin post. They drop into the Community by default now, even if they either had no desire to join or even knew of its existence. (My thoughts on that are not for this topic.) So many really do not have a clue about what happens here and not through there own fault and may enquire how do the get involved.

Taking way the topics that are lesson related, that generally leaves the social areas, gear etc and recording. Given that recording and sharing is a extremely valuable learning experience, it makes sense that “newbies” would be encouraged to do so. And in newbies I mean folks new to the Community, as it is not just raw beginners arriving here.

Regardless of that I personally think the sooner you start recording and sharing, the quicker your development and regret not doing it sooner when I rocked up here in 2013. So I think all people are doing its to share best practices to help others develop.

Even being aware that the AOVYP section exists, will be an encouragement to beginners to see what other folk are doing and what is achievable. But I always think when it comes to posting, it should be when the student is ready and their choice.

I certainly do not see the Community as “pushing” folk into recording, this almost suggest to me that each individual who is encouraged to do so, is then hounded by the forum but hey its about semantics.

I think there is also a problem in not viewing this as replies to individual posters and maybe looking at the replies across the board collectively which to my mind blows it out of proportion, of all this pushing going on. But that’s my perspective.

I also think its ironic that the Another new member checking in poster was happy with the recommendation. So I guess that take’s me full circle, one man’s encouragement is another man’s pushing.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

OK FWIW

I have just read back through Jenny’s post and see nothing to indicate anyone was pushing her into sharing recordings here (and here is not THE internet). Most of the comments suggest recording for your own benefit, to be able to compare with originals, see and hear where you may be making mistakes (timing muffed chords). There are “suggestions” about sharing and a number of the posters actually indicate that it was “when you are ready”. I can only assume the OP has not read these posts in the context they were written and their view is a generalisation based on what has been suggested to pretty much every new forum member in all the time I have been here, getting on for 10 years.

No pressure, just suggestions and encouragement. I do not every recall ever seeing the expression “you must record and post in AOVYP” that is pushing. Everything I read in that post from Jenny is supportive and nurturing and the OPs comment there sticks out like a sore thumb.

I see no evidence of anyone being pressed ganged in to posting audio or video anywhere. If you don’t want to do it or are not ready to do it, great. Just be aware that there is a vehicle available to do so when you are ready and be aware of the benefits it will bring. And highlighting the fact just takes me back to Justin’s core ethos of Paying It Forward.

Back to the family holiday.

[SDKissFan]

I whole heartedly agree Toby. I try to welcome the new members with words of encouragement. Nobody is required to record themselves, but I think it is helpful to record yourself even if you are the only one to ever see it. I look back at my videos from last year and say, " wow I sounded awful", so glad I have improved since then. I post videos, but not all of them. I keep some of them to myself, esp if I am on camera swearing at myself for the mistakes I make. When I do post videos I find the feedback to be tactful and never offensive. Nobody here is polishing a grammy for best new album in 2022, so I look at it like that…end of rant

[stitch]

I think welcoming people to the forum is like meeting someone for the first time. We all know that person who likes to hug people and doesn’t take into consideration that not everyone likes to hug strangers. So they throw open their arm and approach said stranger like they are old friend then get offended when said stranger doesn’t return the hug or simply steps back.

I suggest it might be a good idea to welcome new members with more of a hand shake and suggest recording as a tool to help with the learning process and maybe go and listen to the beginner in the Safe Zone as a gentle nudge rather than posting links to AVOYP and telling them to post videos.
Just my take on the matter

[Socio]

@TheMadman_tobyjenner makes a great point about how a lot of people have joined the community recently to ask questions. There were quite a few app users that were not even aware of the website lessons. Just a suggestion… would it be worth having a standard welcoming post giving a bit of a run down on the website (i.e. link to lesson map, key information etc) and a run down on the forum (e.g. how it works, safe space, AVOYP, OM, useful posts to read when starting out etc). So a bit of a welcome and a tour of the place.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

James thank you, that was something I raised during beta testing and made a similar suggestion.

[stitch]

It sounds like a good idea but you run the risk of the first thing a new member sees is a cold auto response. Where now they get a warm friendly reply form a real person. Could there be a way where the auto response reply’s after 3 or 4 real person responses. Or we could just drop that job on James and Toby.

[Socio]

I was thinking more of having a locked off post with all the key information. And when you welcome the person for the first time you can say take your time to settle in and explore the place. See the following post for some really useful information on the website and forum.

There is a lot of great responses to the same frequently asked questions on the forum. So a lot of the information can be copied on to a single post.

I don’t mind drafting something up and sending over to Toby for review before passing onto the moderators for their approval.