Practice and the intermediate guitarist

[mathsjunky]

Just for the purposes of this thought, by intermediate I mean someone who can confidently play a few songs. Let’s not open that tin of worms, I’m opening another.

Also a lot of this might seem really obvious and I’m sure many have reached my conclusions on their own , but I can’t recall seeing it discussed directly recently ( this might be due to my age )

I’ve been thinking about this a bit recently. Beginner guitarists typically make pretty decent progress for the first few months as they are learning chord shapes, strumming, rhythm etc. Then it often slows a bit, and then a lot until you’ve been playing a few years and feel very little has changed over the past 6 months. At this point I should note that your progress is probably better than you think- record yourself often! I’m also not suggesting that it’s in any way possible to have the same learning trajectory you had as a beginner.

When starting out almost everything is new to beginners. How to hold a guitar , how to fret a string, how to form a chord, how to strum etc. your attention is 100% on doing new things. I think this is the key point.
As you improve I think it’s normal to introduce new ideas more slowly. For example when working on a new chord you most likely have it in a progression that you can play fairly easily ( with little thought) until you get to the chord you are working on. Perhaps 50%, likely more is spent on things that aren’t pushing you very hard. You play those things on autopilot, not too bothered if they aren’t perfect because the important thing you are practicing is coming up.

I’m absolutely not saying to only practice new ideas. You totally need to consolidate what you have already learned and only playing things that are difficult can be very demotivating.

All I’m suggesting is to understand there might be a sliding scale. Be aware of where there might be opportunities to dial up the concentration. Learning a new song with that chord, playing a different inversion of a chord you know, picking a chord rather than strumming, calling out the Nashville numbers of the chords you are playing…there are almost infinite ways to increase your focus.

Also, before others rightly point it out, there are times when a simple idea needs 100% with no distractions.

All I’m saying is have a think about how much you are really focusing during your 2 hour practice session if your progress isn’t what you want it to be. There might be an opportunity to move just a little bit faster.

And remember folks, we do this for fun. Happiness not progress is the goal.

I’ll put on the tin hat, there might be different opinions and that’s cool

[AvalonJ]

Thanks Paul
This is great food for thought
I definitely have room to push myself to get more from my practice time, while still keeping it fun
Not just concentrating harder but with what I’m actually focusing on.
Thanks for this suggestion, it might be just what I needed

[chris_m]

I think this is the learning curve you are referring too. The dip is a thing in neuroscience.

That screenshot comes from this video.

[Beatup6String]

Interesting topic Paul!

I’ve tried to mix “get old stuff sounding better” alongside “learn new stuff” in my practice routine, as well as learning new skills or songs in short bursts with gaps. It seems to be helping!

Check out the book “ Learn faster, perform better”, by Molly Gebrian. I’ve found it quite fascinating.

[HappyCat]

I’ll start off with.
Good subject Paul!
And you seem to be correct. Not much chatter on this subject.

Guess I’ll start off with. I think I fall into your category of intermediate. I know I’m not a beginner and I know I’m not advanced, so, I must be intermediate.

I also ‘think’ I know many of my fallacies. My deficiencies.
So that is where I try to improve at. I do this at my own pace, and it is not very fast, I’ll for sure say that.

I also ‘think’ music when I’m not playing.
I have a book that I think is a really good book that I use for reference. fwiw. It’s
‘The Guitar Handbook’ by Ralph Denyer’.
It has much info in it and I refer to it often. I would recommend that every guitar player wanna be (like me) get this book. I find it invaluable.

I suppose I play a few songs. I’ve played many of them for years. Lately, I’ve been adding embellishment to these songs. Things I hear in my mind, but don’t play. I’ll try to add them in.
The last two songs I’m attempting also have stuff in them that I don’t do too.
Like I picked ‘Close to You’ to learn to play. I’ve been working on it for 6 mo. now easy. Still ain’t got it either. For sure, as ya say Paul, there’s parts I’ve no problem with. But there’s also parts that mess me up good. For sure I play what I can’t play in context. And, I also play what I can’t play as stand alone. These are just hard chords for me to play that I can’t get. After 6 months, I can now mostly (kinda) play them chords. I do still have to think about them when I get to them too. But the longer I play them, the more I get them. Also context is important. That song is a smooth sounding song. I find the changes hard to make smooth, so that’s what I work on.
I don’t work hard on doing this. I’ll spend 5 or ten minutes playing just what is hard. Then move onto something else. Many times it’ll be playing the whole song. Helps me see where I’m at with playing it.

I also work on fretboard notes. All over the fretboard. I don’t know them w/o thinking about what they are. So I try to ‘think’ what they are. This applies to inversions. This even applies to basic cowboy chords. What are the 3 tones that make up that chord? What are the inversions?
I think about more complex chords too. Augmented, diminished, minor, major. They are all related, but my question is, what changes to make these extended chords?

I also play scales often. In any key. In major, which I do alright with, but what about minor. I find there are 3 minors scales. Natural, harmonic, melodic. I don’t know their relationships w/o thinking about this. So I think about it, I play it. I figure I do it enough, it’ll start to make sense. At some point in time. I have no criteria to accomplish other than wanting to know. I don’t need to go fast. I just have to be curious.

Anyways, this is how I’m approaching being intermediate and trying to go further yet. Generally, I think this is working as I do feel I’m getting a better grasp on these things. The longer I do it, the more I think about it, the more the info is retained (memorized).

I suppose I could go on. But I will stop there.
All I know is that I want to play better and that this is how I’ve been trying to accomplish that goal.
I suspect there’s many other ways. And I’m open to anything that will move me in the correct direction.

@mathsjunky

And remember folks, we do this for fun. Happiness not progress is the goal.

And that I do. Especially when it all starts to come together. But even when it don’t, it’s the fun of the journey.
And,
Making music, which is my final goal.

[mathsjunky]

@chris_m

I think this is the learning curve you are referring too. The dip is a thing in neuroscience.

Actually I don’t think this is what I’m talking about - and the video turns into an advert for a service I’m sure this ‘dip’ is a thing, but what I’m referring to thinking about making your practice more efficient and/or effective. I think it can be easy to think we’ve just done an hour’s practice when we spend 70% of that time not truly focused on our efforts. Also, I’m not saying this is wrong, just something to think about.

@HappyCat

‘The Guitar Handbook’ by Ralph Denyer’.

I bought this when it was originally published in the early 80s. I still have it - it’s very beaten up but I agree, it’s a wonderful book.

@HappyCat

Anyways, this is how I’m approaching being intermediate

Sounds like you have a well thought out plan there - I wish you well with it.

[Silvia80]

@mathsjunky

Happiness not progress is the goal.

Thanks Paul, this comes with perfect timing to me as this past couple of weeks once more a nasty thought came to my mind:

“Progress is coming so slow, what is intuitive to pick for others requires me hours and hours of practice, months, years maybe I should give it up and get back to crocheting”.

I didn’t reject this thought, on the contrary I akcnoledged it to be really legit to wonder. And I kept on practicing and pushing through, reminding to myself that “slow” is never slow enough for me and it needs to be slowier.

Eventually I akcnoledged how sitting everyday with my guitars makes me positevely engaged and happy and I didn’t care anymore about being so slow on the uptake . Music is a companion for life.

[BurnsRhythm]

Justin came up with a great comment in a post recently….

”THINK when you practice, FEEL when you play”

I could twist that around to meaning that if your practice isn’t making you think, then it isn’t practice. So….if everything you practice makes you think, then will progress be faster?

By the way Paul, you used the word ‘intermittent’ in your opening sentence. I’m guessing that was a typo?

[mathsjunky]

@Silvia80

“Progress is coming so slow, what is intuitive to pick for others requires me hours and hours of practice, months, years maybe I should give it up and get back to crocheting”.

You have chosen what I would consider to be among the most technically demanding styles of guitar. You have also built yourself a super solid looking technique within that discipline - regardless of whether you consider it “beginner like” Your rendition of Siciliano tells me you absolutely should not take up crochet again!

[mathsjunky]

@BurnsRhythm

I could twist that around to meaning that if your practice isn’t making you think, then it isn’t practice. So….if everything you practice makes you think, then will progress be faster?

Well that sums it up nicely!

@BurnsRhythm

By the way Paul, you used the word ‘intermittent’ in your opening sentence. I’m guessing that was a typo?

Indeed. Well spotted. I’ve corrected this now, thanks!

[stitch]

@Silvia80

“Progress is coming so slow, what is intuitive to pick for others requires me hours and hours of practice, months, years maybe I should give it up and get back to crocheting”.

Silvia you are one of the few members here that I would say have improved the most over the years that I’ve followed your progress.
Many here just follow the lessons and never really take the time to let what they have learnt sink in and use it to play music.

You have always used what you have learnt to make music right from the beginning.

[AJSki2fly]

A very interesting thread Paul, and quite timely and pertinent for me.

It is just over 2 years since I picked up a guitar again, and around 2 years since I joined JG. I went through Grade 1-3, reasonably diligently but probably did not let some aspect sink in, that came back to haunt me later on. I am now about to start my 3rd pass of BLIM, to try and consolidate and do what I did not previously. I have dipped in and out of other guitar sites along the way to try and supplement my learning.

Over the last month or so I have struggled being focused on practice, mainly as I feel my progress has come to a standstill, facing a brick wall moment. I am trying work my way through this and establish how to move forward, I have booked a lesson with a teacher to get some guidance. I suspect the reality is that I need to knuckle down to proper practice, but doing so in a smart way focusing on my main weak areas of playing, and hopefully if I do then more improvement will come in time.

[Freewheelin]

@AJSki2fly

I have booked a lesson with a teacher to get some guidance. I suspect the reality is that I need to knuckle down to proper practice, but doing so in a smart way focusing on my main weak areas of playing, and hopefully if I do then more improvement will come in time.

This is what I am doing. I booked a month of lessons with a local teacher. I will stay in this course, but it won’t hurt to have a professional in front of me evaluating things.

[sclay]

Very interesting topic Paul; and a crucial one, that I have some fairly strong views about.

For me, it very much comes down to discipline, structure and planning. Time is our most valuable, and scarce resource; seems foolish to consistently waste it.

When sitting down to practice, one should know EXACTLY what they are about to do.
I think too many approach practice with a broad, ad-hoc approach, and suffer because of it. Or they mix up practice vs playing, and waste valuable learning time.

For me, practice is not about fun; it’s about progress. You don’t have to be a sad sack about it, but the whole point of it is about getting better, not feeling better. That’s for playing.

As an intermediate player, we have the additional step of more complex ongoing self analysis; identifying areas that are more challenging and devoting appropriate time to them. Sometimes, it can be about what to practice next. Other times it’s about approaching challenging areas from a different angle.

This is one of the main reasons I’ve always written my practice sessions out on paper, in a table.
Over a month, I can spread those 4 completed practice tables on my desk, and see, at a glance, where the ‘red marker’ has been at work. This is both my flashlight and and my compass.
I can tell, for example where the challenges are, and when it may be time to move on.

And practice is about ‘edge of competency’. I want to be spending every second of practice on things that are challenging, and require intense focus; that’s what practice is for.
My practice mantra has developed into ’ go deep, not wide’. That means spending more time on a very particular aspect, allowing the learning to ‘gel’, and giving myself a chance at increasing competency at a deeper level. This has proved particularly fruitful.

‘Consolidating’ for me is separate from practice; it lies between practice and playing and gets its own time and space.

Of course, all the above is not always smooth sailing. There’s doubting and second-guessing, frustrations and ongoing re-evaluations. But the structure and planning means consistent, long term progress, and that any fall off the path will likely be short-lived.

Cheers, Shane

[AvalonJ]

@Silvia80

“Progress is coming so slow, what is intuitive to pick for others requires me hours and hours of practice, months, years maybe I should give it up and get back to crocheting”.

This definitely doesn’t seem the case to me Silvia!
You’ve posted your practice routines and your progress of pieces in your learning log. Your progress certainly does not seem slow to me and I really marvel at your practice planning and structure.

I’m so glad you ended your post with this

@Silvia80

Music is a companion for life.

Shane seems to have a similar approach to practice with the structure.

I think I need to make my practice more structured.

[mathsjunky]

@sclay

And practice is about ‘edge of competency’. I want to be spending every second of practice on things that are challenging, and require intense focus; that’s what practice is for.

I think we have a similar approach, although I think I’m a little less formal about writing plans out - I’ve tried many time and just can’t get on with it for some reason.

[sclay]

@mathsjunky

I think we have a similar approach, although I think I’m a little less formal about writing plans out - I’ve tried many time and just can’t get on with it for some reason.

Whatever works for you is all that matters in the end.
For me, in the age of endless technology, I find there’s often nothing more enlightening than throwing my eye over a month or two worth of written practice notes, and sometimes seeing an entirely new view. I’ve had more than one significant aha moment doing this. That’s one reason why I keep doing it.
I’m the same with any endeavour. All my nutrition, weight training, yoghurt/ cheese making etc is all hand written notes. It think it helps connect me in a way that no fancy software program can do.

Cheers, Shane

Cheers, Shane

[twistor59]

@mathsjunky

All I’m suggesting is to understand there might be a sliding scale

Best played on a Dobro or other resonator

But seriously - we are all very different and have different goals. For example Shane’s clearly working very hard to push himself and expand his boundaries, whereas I’m at the moment just playing the stuff that I enjoy. I try to play stuff that’s enjoyable and new, so occasionally that might “add” something to my playing, but that’s not systematically true.

[Silvia80]

@mathsjunky

the most technically demanding styles of guitar.

I’m not sure of this, especially when I see you guys surfing all the fretboard and picking so fast and also being able to use all the gear, amps and pedals and stuff without dropping a beat. But we’re all different and perceive things differently.

@mathsjunky

you absolutely should not take up crochet again!

Well, maybe when I’ll be retired…but now I’m sure I won’t give up guitar…the thought was nasty and needed to be faced! Thanks Paul for your encouragment.

@stitch that was really kind of you Rick to let me know how you look at my progress…I guess that part of it is due to the fact that I’m really methodical in sharing it and it’s thus visible.

I agree we all need to take the time to let what we learn sink in, I’ll add that it’s not up to us to decide how long it will be and that we can’t force the process - we can just practice, consistently and mindfully and try to make sense of how we are actually able to make music.

@AvalonJ

This definitely doesn’t seem the case to me Silvia!

Now I feel a bit guilty I shared such a negative thought…It surely isn’t the first time that this happens to me but now I think it’s the last time…it won’t happen again because while progress is a very noble goal and one I’ll always aim to, spending time with my guitars everyday is about way lot more than just progress.

@AvalonJ

I think I need to make my practice more structured.

We’re all different and have different learning styles, I think one should do what he/she feels right…also trying different things and approaches is useful. Thanks Jasmine please don’t take that nasty thought too seriously…though I wonder if it happens to other people as well or if it’s just me to be unfair to myself sometimes.

[Silvia80]

There’s really a lot of wisdom in what you wrote Shane and really a lot I can relate to.

@sclay

Of course, all the above is not always smooth sailing. There’s doubting and second-guessing, frustrations and ongoing re-evaluations. But the structure and planning means consistent, long term progress, and that any fall off the path will likely be short-lived.

It is all part of the journey and progress won’t be possible without doubting, on-going re-evaluations and the realated frustrations - we’re humans after all, and trying to make sense along the way.