Scales and Modes - Navigation aids

A recent post by a longtime member pointed out an abundance of ‘peripheral’ guitar topics in recent times. Nothing essentially wrong with this. Its a broad church here.

But, I too, do notice a lack of ‘hardcore’ guitar learning stuff recently; so its prompted the following post about a few navigational aids I’ve been using that may be useful to some; and spark some conversation in others.

Here’s three interesting and helpful fretboard navigational concepts for major and minor scales; and by derivation, the pentatonic scales. The third one relates to modes. These relate to the 5 pattern CAGED system. I’ve not seen the first 2 mentioned anywhere, but I’m sure knowledge of their existence is not ‘new’. Nonetheless, they are helpful for me, and in a very practical way. Perhaps some here may find them useful as well.

My ultimate aim with all these types of ‘aids’ and visualisations, along with note/interval/aural training and playing, is to help along the process of getting this into my subconscious; so actually thinking about them no longer becomes necessary. It becomes more of a live ‘image’.

A multi year endeavour I know, but I already know it works, as I’ve experienced it with previous learning. We probably all have.

Also, what other path would I rather be treading?

1. Each of the five 7 note major/minor scale pattern contains one string with only 2 notes on it.

The other 5 strings are all 3 notes per string*

This gives the following helpful reveal;

For the Major Scale, these 2 notes will ALWAYS be the 5 and the 6. ( Eg, for A Major Scale, E and F#)

For the Minor Scale, these 2 notes will ALWAYS be the b7 and 1 (Eg, for A Minor Scale, G and A)

(* Strings e and E obviously share the exact same notes, so there are 2 instances in one pattern)

I’ve found this one handy for actually ‘seeing’ the patterns more readily; particularly when I might be concentrating on say, arpeggios, and I can lose ‘sight’ of the scale framework underneath.

2. Another interesting one concerns adjacent patterns, and can be applied to both the Major/Minor and Pentatonic scales.

The top 3 strings (G,B,e) of any pattern are duplicated in the bottom 3 strings (E,A,D) of the next pattern. In fact, the exact notes are duplicated. Obviously a shift is required for the B string tuning as always, but nonetheless, the pattern and notes are identical. So the fretboard becomes both a horizontal and a vertical ‘conveyor belt’. Very helpful navigation tool for the 7 or 5 note scale.
If you think about, the way octave shapes on the guitar work, ‘make’ this happen. The point being though, I ‘knew’ these octave shapes 3 years ago, but only recently discovered this little practical aid. Funny how the brain works ( or doesnt) sometimes.

Good for running little drills, doing some ear training, rhythm training etc etc.

3. This one relates to modes. Putting aside Locrian ( as always ), there are 3 minor and 3 major modes of the Major Scale.

The three major modes (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian) all share 5 of the same notes

These 5 notes are the Major Pentatonic notes - 12356


The three minor modes (Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian) all share 5 of the same notes

These 5 notes are the Minor Pentatonic notes 1b345b7

The 2 additional notes in each mode contain the ‘defining’ notes of the mode. Eg the #4 in Lydian, or the 6 in Dorian.

Its a handy way to visualise and actually utilise these, as they are within the perhaps more familiar pentatonic framework. Lots of cool drills etc you can run to start to relate and connect these. Again, additional ways of looking at, and applying things over time, always helps I reckon.

Perhaps some may find the above useful.

.

Cheers, Shane

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Hi Shane, great post!

I discovered number 2 and use it all the time.
The difference is that I made it more general than the top 3 and bottom 3 strings and adjacent patterns. I was just looking at the same thing a bit differently. I will restrict the explanation only on the minor pentatonic scale in Am as it is easiest to understand.

I asked myself a question: “Why would I learn all these different shapes?”
Would it be easier to learn a simple mini pattern (one octave + next root) and then move it across the fretboard starting from new root notes? Obviously, you need to know the notes on the fretboard for this. That mini shape is below.

Can I move this starting from ROOT (A in my example) on every string and keep exactly the same mini pattern? The answer is:

  1. If you are not touching the B string, the mini pattern remains the same (i.e. if I start from A on string 5, fret 12)
  2. If you are touching the B string, you have to adjust one semitone higher (in your example (G,B,e), we would be starting from A on string 3, fret 2)

To me, patterns are shapes, and shapes are changing here due to B string, so I wouldn’t call it identical patterns as you did above. The shape changes (due to B), but I do know how it changes and can adjust for it. I hope I explained this well. Please let me know if it is clear.

One great advantage of this is that I don’t need to think in terms of shapes when playing, I need to think in terms of where are root notes and I can take it from there. Obviously, knowing both scale shapes and this helps a lot, as the shape would always serve as a general framework once you jump to a new root note.

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Shane, I love all of this.
Different perspectives, little pearls of wisdom, sequences and patterns, commonality & differences.
It is all gold dust.
Thank you for sharing it.
:slight_smile:

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Yep mate. You’re utilising the octave shapes diagonally up the neck. This is where I find alot of key based soloing is actually done, particularly those long runs, using triplets etc. I like the term ‘pentatonic highway’, a phrase some teacher coined. And at any point, you can drop off the ‘highway’ straight into one of the vertical frameworks, and play scale notes, arpeggios etc.

Shapes, patterns, call em whatever suits. I prefer patterns here as it ties into the logical intervallic nature of the fretboard. Whatever works.

I mentioned the aid I did, as a lot of playing is done on the top 3 strings; and for me at least, it created a practical knowledge gap on the bottom strings. Sort of like riding a bike lopsided. This aid addresses that for me nicely.

But yep, there are numerous patterns/ relationships etc to be found all the fretboard.

What looked to me 5 years ago as a haphazard organisation of notes, is now progressively revealing itself as a beautifully logical and mathematical masterpiece.

Cheers, Shane

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This summarises it perfectly! I like the expression as well.

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Agreed Shane, a lack of guitar learning stuff around the community of late.

I’m a long way behind you and I aren’t into modes yet so I won’t comment on that.
I’ve already found your points 1 & 2 and when you realise that all 5 patterns contain those two 1 octave finger patterns, it makes it easier to learn new patterns and link them together. If there’s only one full octave in a pattern, it will be one or the other of the finger patterns and the notes above and below that octave are the other pattern.
One of the patterns is a 3 string pattern and the other a 4 string pattern.
I prefer the 3 string pattern and it can be played from any root on any string as long as there are enough strings.
Usual excuses for string 2, of course!

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More specifically, modifying that ‘shape’ slightly by wrapping the top note around - the onesxwuth 2 fret gaos - you get the full pentatonic highway, with just one fret between each note.

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Shane. @sclay Many thanks for this but oh man have you ramped up my frustration level again :slight_smile: If I remember correctly you have been playing guitar for a similar length of time as me but you ability and knowledge are light years ahead of mine. I don’t know where you are in terms of the JG courses but you must be at least IM6!!

As usual I have a number of questions:

  1. What do you mean by ‘5 pattern CAGED system?’?
  2. What do you mean by:
  1. This assumes that we know the various patterns for the major and minor pentatonic scales. So far I’ve only got up to Pattern 1 of both!
  2. What do you mean by octave shape, as not sure this has been covered up to IM4? Do you mean what is covered in this lesson which I only found last week and after to someone else of the forums? https://www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/using-octaves-to-find-notes-im-116
  3. This also assumes that we know about modes. At this point I know next to nothing about modes as not covered up to IM4, so the various names you mention don’t mean much. Should I know about this at this point?

Thanks as always for the post which will no doubt help once I get into more scale patterns and find out what modes are.

Good post Shane @sclay

I hadn’t thought about the modal shared notes in quite the same way as you have suggested. I think of it as “1 note different”. So I’d reorder them in decreasing sharps / increasing flats.

So major ones go Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian; Minor ones continue as Dorian, Aeolian, Phyrigian (and I think of Locrian as the next minor mode in the sequence).

I sometimes warm up going up Lydian, down Ionian, up Mixolydian, down Dorian etc. from the same key centre (i.e parallel modes).

Your suggestion of using the pentatonic scales may give me a different warm up. So say play the pentatonics but add the mode flavour notes (so Lydian gets a sharp 4th in the re-imagined 6 note scale, Phyrigian gets a flat 2nd etc). I think it will be a bit of scalar mental gymnastics to start with, but will soon enough become easier and probably help with recognising modes.

(Note, i don’t have an instrument with me whilst writing this, so it may not survive reality when I do have a go at it).

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Some good guidance here Shane most appreciated.

I was aware of 1 and 2 but would not have been able to have articulated it as well as you have. And it is yet again good to see people explaining things in intervals so it is immediately transferable to different keys with out the need to “decode”.

#1 And if you are aware of the positional relationship of each of those interval, knowing where the 5 sits in relation to the Root/1 or 6 in respect of the 3 for example, finding the rest of the scale or chord tones becomes much easier. Getting it solidified in your brain is a different matter and takes much time.

#2 I like to think of this as a spiral scale that can transport you up the neck (coming back down is harder :rofl: )

#3 Not really delved into modes for a while but this rings some bells. I will need to pick up and see how this maps out with the guitar in my hands. Sounds good though.

:+1:

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Hello Stuart,

Try not to stress about where you’re at mate. You’re in the game and doing well. Be proud of how far you’ ve come.

Everything’s relative, and everyone’s situtation is unique. I’m a mere novice compared to some here. Rather than compare myself, I’m grateful they are here so I can absorb their wisdom.

Re your questions. I’ll answer what I should; but I’ll point you to Justins lesson, so you get a feel for the topic.

Massive topic. Extensively covered by Justin in multiple modules in Grade 6. Just keep cruising along till you get there.
Basically, it’s using the open chords you know, C A G E D, to build multiple versions of them all up the fretboard with their own ‘sound’. And because chords come from scales, the CAGED framework applies to scales as well.

Scales can described by degrees, and each note is assigned a number. The Major Scale is the ‘origin’ of all, so it gets the ‘default’ numbers.

So,
Major - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Minor - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

The way all the patterns fall on the fretboard, one string out of the six will only have 2 notes on it. The other strings will have 3 notes.
What I’ve mentioned are what degrees these notes are.

For Major - 5 &6
For Minor - b7 &1

The actual notes will be determined by what key you are in. I give the key of A as an example.

Stay there on Pattern 1 a while Stuart. The more you ingrain it, in every way, the much better your progress will be on any other pattern. There’s no rush, and zero benefit in rushing. In fact, I reckon rushing to other patterns will slow you down considerably.

Octave Shape? The same note, eg C, but higher in pitch ( up one octave) , or lower in pitch ( down one octave). These form regular patterns on the fretboard that provide the base level navigation on the fretboard. Important to become very familiar with when the lessons come up. The link you’ve noted is where they are at :+1:

I would forget about modes for the moment Stuart. They are not ‘necessary’ learning, and many accomplished musicians play their whole lives without touching them. I am only at a rudimentary level with them, and they are certainly not part of my core learning.
I do see a use for them though in my path.

I mentioned them here because, from the pentatonic angle, which is familiar, they become more easily recognisable, and little colour tones can be added here and there to spice up the pentatonic sound.

Keep at it mate. We’re all here to help each other out. All the best. Hope all is well.

Cheers, Shane

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Yes, I have a similar one Simon. @Richard_close2u got me onto these ideas, which I’ve found very helpful both in relation to the notes/ fingering, and the subtle changes in sound moving through the modes from ‘light’ to ‘dark’.

Similarly, play the pentatonic down, the mode up; next position etc . Limitless permutations. Use a modal backing track etc, etc
( I need at least another 50 years on this planet :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:)

Cheers, Shane

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Thanks Toby.

I heard someone say, early on in my learning, that the guitar, in essence, is an “intervallic rhythmic instrument”. That expression has always stayed with me; and progressively proven true.

I have had a similar experience. Going back down the neck is always more challenging for lots of things for me, which is why I practice it alot. Its almost like the left/right hand situation. I heard one teacher refer to it as " the forbidden zone" …:zany_face:.

Cheers, Shane

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Has everyone seen noticed these for the major and minor pentatonic scales?

A Major Pentatonic (Root - 2 - 3 - 5 - 6)

A Minor Pentatonic (Root - b3 - 4 - 5 - b7)

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Interesting!
No I hadn’t noticed that. Probably because I’m not that far into it yet.

Is there a reason why you haven’t included the 5th on string 5 of the middle minor pentatonic diagram?

An oversight, now corrected. :slight_smile:

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These are what I call the Pentatonic Highways. I use them as frameworks alot in (attempting) to play solos and lead guitar. I reckon everyone should learn these, both from the 6th and 5th strings

What ‘pattern’ are these as they don’t look anything I recognise at this time?

They are not patterns as in Pattern 1 of the ____ scale or Pattern 2 of the ____ scale.
The CAGED system - which is the recommended way to begin learning major scale, pentatonic scales etc, gives five patterns (1-5, also called C-shape, A-shape, G-shape, E-shape and D-shape).
Those are sometimes called ‘boxes’ and one problem people can face is breaking out of feeling boxed in.

Each and every scale contains only a set number of notes that repeat up and down at different pitches, higher and lower. The ‘box’ patterns all interlink and connect together along the entire length of the fretboard. What I have shown in the diagrams above are ‘lateral’ patterns where the scales are seen as spreading out across a large portion of the fretboard, spanning multiple ‘box patterns’. This lateral layout contains easy to learn and consistently repeating mini-patterns (of five notes for pentatonics). The yellow sections are the five notes in their patterns. The only tiny alteration is that the five-note section is stretched out when it meets the B string in some patterns due to the nature of the tuning of the B string.

@Richard_close2u

I kind of know the Am one from 5th fret string 6. But my use case is a 2 octave pentatonic on a 4 string bass (my band’s outro to “I will Survive”). So when I’ve played the 4 and 5 on the G string it becomes linear for the b7 and octave. I play the b3 on the same string as the root.

Is there a reason that the b3 is 2 frets back on the next higher string rather than 3 frets up on the same string. I understand it is the same pitch, but am curious as to whether there is a reason to favour one fingering over the other.