The Circle of Fifths - where does it come from, where does it go?

There’s always a good reason to bounce back to the Cof5 :smiley:

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I’ll never get all of this on a single cheat sheet.
:upside_down_face:

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Thanks @Richard_close2u for the first part of the Circle of 5ths, just catching up with this and a very clear explanation. Looking forward to working through the rest of the study.

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Thanks @MikeJT1962 :+1: )

@Richard_close2u - A real gemstone you have explained and illustrated here. Excellent job. The time and effort you have put into this is amazing. You are a real treasure!!.. and a little nerdy :nerd_face: Thnx a lot. :+1: :sunglasses: :heart: :pray:

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Thanks Kim, I appreciate it … a little nerdy … yes, I suppose, guilty as charged :wink:

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Thank you Richard, your explanations are priceless. Regards, Greg

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@jazz77 Thank you Greg, much appreciated.
:slight_smile:

I know this is a while ago but for

Richard_close2uJustinGuitar Approved Teacher, Moderator & Official Guide

Aug '22

The Circle of Fifths Part 4 - where does it go? [b] major & relative minor scales plus pentatonic scales

Q6 notes in Eb minor pentatonic I get Eb,F,G,Bb,C

Not Eb,Gb,Ab,Bb,Db given.

Not sure where I am going wrong, don’t think the difference is due to enharmonic equivalents.

Really enjoying the thread, very enlightening. Such a lot of work. I still have a way to go to get through it.
Many thanks.

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@Alan_1970 - thanks for reading, following along, doing the quiz questions etc.

We can derive the Eb minor pentatonic from basics again. Any minor pentatonic scale is a five-note subset of its minor scale. Any minor scale has a relative major scale. The root of the major scale is the second note of a seven-note cluster reading clockwise. The root of the relative minor scale is the fifth note reading clockwise.

From the full Circle of Fifths (with # and b shown):

We need to identify a seven-note cluster with Eb as the fifth note clockwise.

It is this cluster. Notice that the rules concerning building major scale necessitate renaming the note B as Cb.

We are looking at Gb major scale and its relative Eb minor scale.

The process for finding the pentatonics is identical - remove one note from either end.

Place them in alphabetical order for the two scales:

Gb major pentatonic = Gb, Ab, Bb, Db, Eb

Eb minor pentatonic = Eb, Gb, Ab, Bb, Db

If you have scale knowledge then you can check.

Minor pentatonic scales comprise the root, b3, 4, 5 and b7.

Eb minor scale = Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7

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Thank you @Richard_close2u, that makes more sense now, I don’t think I first found the relative major scale of Eb minor scale before assigning the notes.
The rule you mention about renaming notes, I thought I saw it in a part of the thread but can’t find it now. Any pointers to where that is.
Thanks again for explanation, great thread, quite taxing for my brain but very enjoyable.

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It is in several places through Justin’s lessons / theory course and many topics here in the Community.
It boils down to these two factors.
the major scale formula is Tone-Tone-Semitone-Tone-Tone-Tone-Semitone
All letters must be used once and once only.

These two combined mean that for some scales, enharmonic equivalent names for notes must be selected carefully and sometimes these are not our usual choices for those notes. For example naming the note B as a Cb instead - which is necessary in the Gb major scale as in my previous reply.

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Hey Richard - when I was looking for the repeating 3-item pattern, what stands out to me is W-H-W, which does repeat. I think if you already know the pattern you’re looking for and the context then you’ll see the pattern you reference. Otherwise there’s no reason to pick one pattern over the other. Thanks for the in-depth articles though.

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Hi Nick …
Thanks for reading and engaging with the content to the extent that you’re searching for and finding your own patterns and enquiring at that level.

I’m doing this on the fly, unsure what I will see.
Here are four iterations of the major scale formula, spread out and multi-coloured for ease of viewing.

Here is the same with ordinal numbers assigned.

Here is the same with the W-H-W you observe highlighted and the four iterations brought together for even spacing.

First thought. It exists as a cluster that recurs in a two-step repeating pattern of:
2nd, 3rd, 4th
then
6th, 7th, 1st
Second thought. I’m not sure what else it reveals. I’m wondering if a Eureka moment will hit. If you have one be sure to let us know. :slight_smile:

Thanks for the detailed reply. Actually I was being more simplistic - just that on a surface level W-H-W stood out to me, not that it was useful or meant anything as initially it didn’t occur to me to apply the degrees as I didn’t know that’s what you were getting at. I just scanned for a standout pattern. Once I read your next comments then it was clear

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