I am talking about intervals and you are talking about scale degrees, so we will never agree, because we are talking about two different things.
And yes in key of C, G is the fifth degree.
Usually with piano in addition of the chord you showed, you play the root note of the chord with left hand, so that the root note will be the lowest note.
I’m talking about the Circle of 5th which is made from Scale Degrees and in the lesson Justin is also talking about the Circle of 5th and in the context of the lesson C to G is a 5th. Doesn’t matter if you are going up or down in pitch.
You can see where the confusion come in. Going Down a 4th using the Circle of 5th would be C to F or G to C.
Circle of fifths build from scale degrees is your interpretation of circle of fifths.
I would argue that more commonly circle of fifths is seen as representation of all 12 notes as ascending fifth intervals when going clockwise.
I mean Justin even says this very clearly in the video from 0:28->0:45.
Ascending fifth intervals you say. Where do you suppose these 5th intervals come from?
Could it be the Diatonic Scales associated with each note in the circle.
The reason the circle of 5th is laid out the way it is has nothing to do with 5th or 4th. It is laid out for the number of sharps and flats in a Diatonic Major Scale. C has no Sharps or Flats G has 1sharp D has 2 sharps A has 3 sharps and so on. Going the other way C has no sharps or flats F has 1 Flat Bb has 2 flats Eb has 3 flats and so on.
That is certainly one way to look and use it. It is a tool used for many purposes.
That is, imho, a fair comment when applied to the actual notes that Justin plays in terms of their pitch falling then rising (as opposed to the note names which are an exact match for the circle of 5ths).
Correct. It would be impossible to start at the lowest possible note C on a guitar and do a complete clockwise lap of the circle of 5ths. It can be done on a grand piano with its 88 keys, its 7 octaves + 3 note span.
When going up in pitch - yes.
When going up in pitch - yes.
When going up in pitch - yes.
Check out the lesson for Coldplay - The Scientist where the guitar is tuned in 4ths.
Yes. Many musicians call it the circle of 4ths and read it anticlockwise, or actually have it written out in the inverse order to read 4ths clockwise. This is especially true of musicians who tend to play in keys with flats (think brass for example, as opposed to guitarists who tend to avoid those flat keys and like C, G, A, D, E etc.)
100%.
As stated, a grand piano allows this, not many other instruments.
This is not correct. An ascending 5th is inversely matched by a descending 4th (major 5th ← → minor 4th).
G is the 5th scale degree in the C major scale.
G is the 5th diatonic chord in the key of C major.
All good.
G can be at an interval of a 5th from C or at a 4th interval from C depending on whether the pitch movement is from low to high or high to low.
Justin is going to notes with the correct name to match exactly those shown in the clockwise direction of the circle of 5ths.
But, strictly speaking, he is not moving up in 5ths as he plays notes that alternately go lower in pitch then higher in pitch.
Good point. There is an easily overlooked yet important distinction between ‘intervals’ separate and independent of scales / scale degrees / chords in a key. Many of the same terms are used when discussing them and the overlaps are many.
I wrote a massively long topic covering this very thing The Circle of Fifths - where does it come from, where does it go?
Yes, different things. I will write more.
It is an explanation that I find useful and it helps describe the derivation very clearly.
This is also true, but to me is a little more arbitrary. An analogy might be that it is akin to seeking something when you know in advance what that something will be. Like someone saying, “Hey, let’s arrange the 12 notes around a circle, but not in alphabetical order and see what happens. Wow – look! By some amazing magic trick they can be placed in this seemingly random order and they show a pattern of 5ths.”
This is subjective on my part and both can be correct.
I would suggest that these properties are all a result of the arrangement – not a means to creating the arrangement.
Indeed.
See my circle of 5ths topic.
Thank you for the detailed answer and the extra material, I will check it out, from a quick glance it seems very interesting.
Also makes sense why it is demonstrated this way. Overlapping terms in music theory certainly confuse me sometimes.
@jkorvola @Jozsef @stitch @TheMadman_tobyjenner
I have just created a new topic that I hope will help in this discussion.
Cool Mr C !
Will have to check it out at the weekend. A few days of knitting fog and herding cats, trying to get big French Agri Plant hire, come lop some trees down. Been a non playing week and the fun ain’t over yet. Will need beer and distractions at the weekend. This will do me fine !!
I have now started to post instalments in a new topic on the theory and practical uses of the Circle of Fifths, beginning here: The Circle of Fifths Part 1 - where does it come from?
I hope people find it useful.
Cheers 
| Richard_close2u | JustinGuitar Official Guide, Approved Teacher & Moderator
Hope this is the right forum, I haven’t posted in here much.
I made this tool for myself, but thought some others may find it useful.
Four sheets to print out
The first two sheets have the circle of fifths, with the most common guitar chords. There is the row of major chords with the 5th to the right and the 4th to the left. The row below it is the relative minor chords and likewise. The top row is diminished chords, the bottom row diminished 7th. Place sheet 2 on either side of sheet 1 to continue the circle.
The second two sheets have windows to be cut out. Stick them back to back, and place them above sheets 1/2, and it will show you the chords for the key you are in.
https://i.imgur.com/FsjdAe8.jpg - this is a photo of the MK1 version, to show how to use it. It’s currently showing E Minor. If you flip the cutout piece the other way up, it will show G major.
Printing help, images are huge:
Right click the images on the album and select “save image as” to download to your computer.
I recommend irfanview as an easy Windows program for opening and printing images. In irfanview, you can go file>print, and select “Best fit to page” or pick a scaling option to have them all print to the same dimensions as each other. (I was not paying attention to print dimensions when I compiled these images)
This approach is circle of fifths-ish in a single chart: The NEW Holy Grail Of Music - For Guitar and Beyond.
If mine being 4 sheets puts you off, here it is as a single sheet. You can just ignore the stuff that’s not relevant for your key instead of using sheets 3 and 4 to make a template.
Not a thing in the world with finding your own way and liking it. Enjoy!
I’ve just watched his whole video, and I wouldn’t use the words “in a single chart” for his solution.
We both have only half the keys on our first sheet. My second sheet continues the circle of fifths, his goes the other direction for the circle of fourths (and misses out the G-flat/F-sharp key). Additionally, my sheets have the relative minors baked in, where I would want two more sheets for the minor keys with the information presented in his style.
I’m not saying his tools are less valuable than mine. For people who want the names of each note in each key and the steps between them, his chart is what you want. I made my chart, already knowing the keys, but not knowing the guitar chords. These charts have slightly different presentations of similar information.
But, I think it is misleading to present that alternative as “in a single chart”, when he has two, and requires two more for the minor keys.
It’s all good. If it gets someone playing music then I’m all in favor of it.
An interesting video, Clint, very listenable voice that I think will appeal to many.
Two observations;
It’s important to actively listen to what people say and try to understand it at the same time.
Gurus make mistakes (even our Justin). The first chord sequence he plays (after 7 min) contains F# minor, but he analyses it as B minor, which might confuse beginners.
I do think explaining the circle of 5 without using a circle is missing out a big trick and the beauty/simplicity, but as you say, whatever floats people’s boats and gets them playing and learning is a good thing
Hi Snorkel,
thanks for sharing your chart. That must have taken a fair bit of time to assemble and it’s food for thought and should help folk, even by just looking at it and trying to decide if it would be useful to them
I’m not sure all the chords you chose to include are appropriate. I’m only a beginner/intermediate, but I’d be unable to play the Db or Eb chords that you chose to use. The barre chords are much easier and more commonly used for those.
I think it’s most helpful to use chords that make sense with learning on the fretboard, which in this case would be all barre chords, as you can see the repeating pattern as you progress up the fretboard in fifths.
Still, to each his/her own. Thanks again.
I don’t want to talk you out of your sheet if it is helping you to become a better player. I haven’t heard you play anything yet, so I can’t comment on that.
Specific chord shapes can be somewhat limiting and hint that once you learn a certain shape you have mastered that chord. Better to conceptualize the progression and implement it on the fretboard in a way that suits you in the moment, can expand as you gain more knowledge, and utilize it/them for different applications.
It’s always cool when you can make your own discoveries or just organize the knowledge in your own way.
However, the chord grips shown on the page seem to me a bit random, open chords mixed with root 6 and root 5 barre grips. Is there any underlying logic to those choices, or are these just the grips you are already familiar with? Like, there are some more economical/comfortable ways to play an Eb major chord.
For the chords I picked, I perhaps made a mistake. I picked the top suggestions on JGuitar’s chord library, thinking I was on the JustinGuitar website.
Their top suggestions for the chords I do know all matched the chords as I first learned them, so I figured the top suggestion for other chords would be solid.
So, the two chords in question are D flat and E flat major, you guys would suggest barre chords for those?
I was actually only going to create the first sheet, but then thought I should do the whole thing for completeness.
