The Cycle Of 5ths

[jkorvola]

That is certainly one way to look and use it. It is a tool used for many purposes.

[Richard_close2u]

@jkorvola

this example is a bit confusing. Rather than going up in fifths, what Justin is doing is going down a fourth(C->G), then up a fifth (G->D), then down a fourth (D->A) and so on

That is, imho, a fair comment when applied to the actual notes that Justin plays in terms of their pitch falling then rising (as opposed to the note names which are an exact match for the circle of 5ths).

@Jozsef

It’s done for the sake of convenience and for the demonstration of the notes. One whole lap around the cycle of 5ths equals 7 octaves which is way out of the guitar’s range.

Correct. It would be impossible to start at the lowest possible note C on a guitar and do a complete clockwise lap of the circle of 5ths. It can be done on a grand piano with its 88 keys, its 7 octaves + 3 note span.

@jkorvola

Good point … I still think that when teaching that by playing 3rd fret of 5th string and then 3rd fret of 6th string (C to G), is moving in the cycle of fifths, there is the danger that the learner thinks that this movement is fifth, when in fact it is a fourth.

@stitch

C to G is a 5th

When going up in pitch - yes.

@stitch

G to C is a 4th

When going up in pitch - yes.

@stitch

D to A is also a 5th A to D is a 4th.

When going up in pitch - yes.

Check out the lesson for Coldplay - The Scientist where the guitar is tuned in 4ths.

@jkorvola

When going clockwise in cycle of fifths the intervals can be seen as ascending fifths or descending fourths. When going counterclockwise the intervals can be seen as ascending fourths or descending fifths.

Yes. Many musicians call it the circle of 4ths and read it anticlockwise, or actually have it written out in the inverse order to read 4ths clockwise. This is especially true of musicians who tend to play in keys with flats (think brass for example, as opposed to guitarists who tend to avoid those flat keys and like C, G, A, D, E etc.)

@Jozsef

What I meant was that if you start playing the cycle of 5ths in the order of ascending pitches, you will not be able to complete one cycle on the guitar.

100%.

As stated, a grand piano allows this, not many other instruments.

@stitch

C to G is always a 5th, doesn’t matter which way you go ascending or descending

This is not correct. An ascending 5th is inversely matched by a descending 4th (major 5th ← → minor 4th).

@stitch

This is totally irrelevant and does not change the fact that G is the 5th of C …

G is the 5th scale degree in the C major scale.

G is the 5th diatonic chord in the key of C major.

All good.

G can be at an interval of a 5th from C or at a 4th interval from C depending on whether the pitch movement is from low to high or high to low.

@stitch

In the exercise Justin is starting on the note C and going to the Note G the 5th of C then from G to D the 5th of G then from D to A the 5th of D and so on.

Justin is going to notes with the correct name to match exactly those shown in the clockwise direction of the circle of 5ths.

But, strictly speaking, he is not moving up in 5ths as he plays notes that alternately go lower in pitch then higher in pitch.

@jkorvola

I was talking about intervals, not scale degrees or chords in a key. Circle of fifths has many different applications, one of them being that you move in fifths or fourths around the circle (intervals).

The fact is that when you descend from C to G, the sound you are making is interval fourth.

Good point. There is an easily overlooked yet important distinction between ‘intervals’ separate and independent of scales / scale degrees / chords in a key. Many of the same terms are used when discussing them and the overlaps are many.

@stitch

The Circle Of 5th works off Scale Degrees.

I wrote a massively long topic covering this very thing The Circle of Fifths - where does it come from, where does it go?

@jkorvola

I am talking about intervals and you are talking about scale degrees, so we will never agree, because we are talking about two different things.

Yes, different things. I will write more.

@jkorvola

Circle of fifths build from scale degrees is your interpretation of circle of fifths.

It is an explanation that I find useful and it helps describe the derivation very clearly.

@jkorvola

I would argue that more commonly circle of fifths is seen as representation of all 12 notes as ascending fifth intervals when going clockwise.

This is also true, but to me is a little more arbitrary. An analogy might be that it is akin to seeking something when you know in advance what that something will be. Like someone saying, “Hey, let’s arrange the 12 notes around a circle, but not in alphabetical order and see what happens. Wow – look! By some amazing magic trick they can be placed in this seemingly random order and they show a pattern of 5ths.”

This is subjective on my part and both can be correct.

@stitch

It is laid out for the number of sharps and flats in a Diatonic Major Scale.

I would suggest that these properties are all a result of the arrangement – not a means to creating the arrangement.

@jkorvola

It is a tool used for many purposes.

Indeed.

See my circle of 5ths topic.

The Circle of Fifths - where does it come from, where does it go?

INDEX Below are links to each of the successive parts as this topic expands. The Circle of Fifths Part 1 - where does it come from? The Circle of Fifths Part 2 - isn’t it the same as the circle of fourths? The Circle of Fifths Part 3 - where does it go? (a) major scales The Circle of Fifths Part 4 - where does it go? [b] major & relative minor scales plus pentatonic scales The Circle of Fifths Part 5 - where does it go? [c] major & minor chords The Circle of Fifths Part 6 - wh…

[jkorvola]

Thank you for the detailed answer and the extra material, I will check it out, from a quick glance it seems very interesting.

Also makes sense why it is demonstrated this way. Overlapping terms in music theory certainly confuse me sometimes.

[Richard_close2u]

@jkorvola @Jozsef @stitch @TheMadman_tobyjenner

I have just created a new topic that I hope will help in this discussion.

Intervals, scale degrees and more

Understanding the basics of intervals relies on knowing that they are viewed from the perspective of semitones (= half steps = two notes one fret apart on a guitar). Starting from any note and thinking of it as in position ‘zero’ there are thirteen intervals, each in their own position, at their own distance, from the start and each with their own name – some have multiple names as a result of enharmonic equivalent notes. Conventionally, intervals are considered in an ascending manner, from a st…

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

Cool Mr C !

Will have to check it out at the weekend. A few days of knitting fog and herding cats, trying to get big French Agri Plant hire, come lop some trees down. Been a non playing week and the fun ain’t over yet. Will need beer and distractions at the weekend. This will do me fine !!

[Richard_close2u]

I have now started to post instalments in a new topic on the theory and practical uses of the Circle of Fifths, beginning here: The Circle of Fifths Part 1 - where does it come from?
I hope people find it useful.

Cheers
| Richard_close2u | JustinGuitar Official Guide, Approved Teacher & Moderator

[snorkel23]

Hope this is the right forum, I haven’t posted in here much.

I made this tool for myself, but thought some others may find it useful.

[Album] Circle of Fifths guitar chords with cutout template

Four sheets to print out

The first two sheets have the circle of fifths, with the most common guitar chords. There is the row of major chords with the 5th to the right and the 4th to the left. The row below it is the relative minor chords and likewise. The top row is diminished chords, the bottom row diminished 7th. Place sheet 2 on either side of sheet 1 to continue the circle.

The second two sheets have windows to be cut out. Stick them back to back, and place them above sheets 1/2, and it will show you the chords for the key you are in.

https://i.imgur.com/FsjdAe8.jpg - this is a photo of the MK1 version, to show how to use it. It’s currently showing E Minor. If you flip the cutout piece the other way up, it will show G major.

---

Printing help, images are huge:

Right click the images on the album and select “save image as” to download to your computer.
I recommend irfanview as an easy Windows program for opening and printing images. In irfanview, you can go file>print, and select “Best fit to page” or pick a scaling option to have them all print to the same dimensions as each other. (I was not paying attention to print dimensions when I compiled these images)

[CT]

This approach is circle of fifths-ish in a single chart: The NEW Holy Grail Of Music - For Guitar and Beyond.

[snorkel23]

If mine being 4 sheets puts you off, here it is as a single sheet. You can just ignore the stuff that’s not relevant for your key instead of using sheets 3 and 4 to make a template.

[Album] Circle of fifths with chords, one sheet

[CT]

Not a thing in the world with finding your own way and liking it. Enjoy!

[snorkel23]

I’ve just watched his whole video, and I wouldn’t use the words “in a single chart” for his solution.

We both have only half the keys on our first sheet. My second sheet continues the circle of fifths, his goes the other direction for the circle of fourths (and misses out the G-flat/F-sharp key). Additionally, my sheets have the relative minors baked in, where I would want two more sheets for the minor keys with the information presented in his style.

I’m not saying his tools are less valuable than mine. For people who want the names of each note in each key and the steps between them, his chart is what you want. I made my chart, already knowing the keys, but not knowing the guitar chords. These charts have slightly different presentations of similar information.

But, I think it is misleading to present that alternative as “in a single chart”, when he has two, and requires two more for the minor keys.

[CT]

It’s all good. If it gets someone playing music then I’m all in favor of it.

[brianlarsen]

An interesting video, Clint, very listenable voice that I think will appeal to many.
Two observations;
It’s important to actively listen to what people say and try to understand it at the same time.
Gurus make mistakes (even our Justin). The first chord sequence he plays (after 7 min) contains F# minor, but he analyses it as B minor, which might confuse beginners.
I do think explaining the circle of 5 without using a circle is missing out a big trick and the beauty/simplicity, but as you say, whatever floats people’s boats and gets them playing and learning is a good thing

Hi Snorkel,
thanks for sharing your chart. That must have taken a fair bit of time to assemble and it’s food for thought and should help folk, even by just looking at it and trying to decide if it would be useful to them

@snorkel23

I made my chart, already knowing the keys, but not knowing the guitar chords

I’m not sure all the chords you chose to include are appropriate. I’m only a beginner/intermediate, but I’d be unable to play the Db or Eb chords that you chose to use. The barre chords are much easier and more commonly used for those.
I think it’s most helpful to use chords that make sense with learning on the fretboard, which in this case would be all barre chords, as you can see the repeating pattern as you progress up the fretboard in fifths.
Still, to each his/her own. Thanks again.

[CT]

@snorkel23

These charts have slightly different presentations of similar information.

I don’t want to talk you out of your sheet if it is helping you to become a better player. I haven’t heard you play anything yet, so I can’t comment on that.

Specific chord shapes can be somewhat limiting and hint that once you learn a certain shape you have mastered that chord. Better to conceptualize the progression and implement it on the fretboard in a way that suits you in the moment, can expand as you gain more knowledge, and utilize it/them for different applications.

[Jozsef]

It’s always cool when you can make your own discoveries or just organize the knowledge in your own way.

However, the chord grips shown on the page seem to me a bit random, open chords mixed with root 6 and root 5 barre grips. Is there any underlying logic to those choices, or are these just the grips you are already familiar with? Like, there are some more economical/comfortable ways to play an Eb major chord.

[snorkel23]

For the chords I picked, I perhaps made a mistake. I picked the top suggestions on JGuitar’s chord library, thinking I was on the JustinGuitar website.

Their top suggestions for the chords I do know all matched the chords as I first learned them, so I figured the top suggestion for other chords would be solid.

So, the two chords in question are D flat and E flat major, you guys would suggest barre chords for those?

I was actually only going to create the first sheet, but then thought I should do the whole thing for completeness.

[netwiz]

FWIW I’ll just mention that I like the version that has the relative minor chords in an inner circle. It just makes it a bit easier to take in.

[Benswan]

I understand the concept and can follow the lesson up to the point of the #'s and b’s (C scale) from the bottom of the circle to the top. Evidently we are no longer simple counting the 5th note from this point onwards. Please help me understand what I am missing here. Thanks very much!

[Jeff]

We’re still counting 5ths up, but from F# upwards the enharmonic equivalents come in to play.

The ‘complete’ cycle would look like this from bottom to top.

F#/Gb
C#/Db
G#/Ab
D#/Eb
A#/Bb
E#/F
B#/C

The graphic has a mixture of sharps and flats because it omits some theoretical keys that aren’t practical.

E# and B# are the same as F and C.
Fb and Cb are the same as E and B.

The keys of G#, D# and A# all have double sharps. You’ll often see their enharmonic equivalents only: Ab, Eb and Bb respectively.

The keys of F# and C# don’t have any double sharps. That’s why you see both of them in the cycle of 5ths: F#/Gb and C#/Db.

I’m not sure why Justin’s graphic doesn’t include C#. @Richard_close2u might give us some more insight.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

@Jeff

I’m not sure why Justin’s graphic doesn’t include C#.

I think its because every note is a #, so its a bit pointless adding it. I am sure he mentions this but no doubt Mr C will confirm.