I’m not an expert at this but here goes:
Have you heard of A 440? 440 is the number of “vibrations” per second.
The number of vibrations that a Perfect 4th and Perfect 5th have are a Perfect Ratio to 440. Actually, a perfect ratio of vibrations to the Root note of the scale. So, it’s a math thing. Really, we can consider it just the name of the 4th and 5th notes, it’s not really important why it’s called that.
Mike @mtglazer
It is a physics as well as a maths thing.
Here is the frequency of the notes on the fret board
Michael
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i’ve started to try this whilst resting my finger thats developed a bit of an ache. man i am bad at it. i mean nowhere near. Doesnt help that wife strolls past and nails it every time. she thinks im kidding around but this is the best i can do! am i tone deaf? i hope not, i can at least tell im out of tune.
@_will
Hello Will
No you’re not tone deaf. Very few people are, a lot just think they are!
Don’t worry about not being able to nail the intervals right now. Training your ear takes time. You can’t force it but you can help it by regularly listening and practicing the intervals.
Play the interval repeatedly on guitar and listen to it. Sing it in your head as you play it. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Imagining the sound in your head helps to hold it in your memory.
Next, play the root and try to sing the second note in your head before you play it. The guitar will tell you if you’re right.
Repeat the above with all the intervals and, with time and practice, you’re mind will gradually separate and recognise the different intervals. Your ear will develop!
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thanks @BurnsRhythm - i’m keeping going. i quite like the excercise despite finding it hard. wife is helping me work out the notes. ive also found an app (“find the note”) that will tell me the note im singing. I’m literally hooting at it until it says the right note.
I’ve also tried working out twinkle twinkle and darth vaders march tune. dubious results. Its fun doing something so bewildering!
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@_will
Spot on Will, you’re doing the right things. Play what you hear is a great exercise. Great that your wife is able to help you too.
Don’t expect immediate results, it will be on going and like you say, can be a lot of fun.
This is the first time I’ve tried ear training, so I know I’ll develop the skill, but maybe somebody on here who is more knowledgeable will have some insight on this quirk I seem to have.
It’s easy for me to get the right note every time when I’m going higher, but I consistently choose the wrong note going lower. Like going in one direction is intuitive and coming back down is intuitive but in a different interval, maybe?
I tried out a free online pitch matching site (turns out my voice trends sharp, which is interesting, since when I tried to tune the guitar by ear when I first started, the tuner let me know they were all a bit sharp). The tuner website has a visual keyboard and I noticed my wrong notes always fell roughly the same distance between the two fifth-interval notes, regardless of what I started with. An example is I played an E4 (9th fret G string) (the numbers are for each octave I think), then my natural next note was A3, but the perfect fifth note was supposed to be A3 (7th fret D string). Another I tried started with D#5 (fret 11 high e), my singing attempt was G#4, but on the fretboard the actual note was G#4 (fret 9 B string).
Once I play them they sound natural and it’s easy to match the pitch but my brain obviously expects a different thing musically going in one direction compared to the other.
**
Also, I don’t really understand the point of playing songs that have some fifth intervals in them? Since most of the song is other notes…
I think most people, including me, find it harder to sing descending intervals. I’m not sure why that is. Maybe because we’re so used to hear and sing the major scale ascending?
Am I right that there’s a typo in the examples you gave? Your singing attempt matches the note that you wanted to sing (A3=A3 and G#4=G#4), but I think you meant to say that you sang a semitone sharp or flat?
- You played an E4 and wanted to sing an A3 (perfect 5th down), but sang an A#3?
- You played a D#5 and wanted to sing a G#4 (perfect 5th down), but sang a G4?
I honestly think that’s to be expected when you’re just starting out. I’ve been at this stuff for months and I still make mistakes, especially in the lower and higher ranges. I find it a lot easier in the comfortable middle range.
What really helped me are song references for each interval, both ascending and descending.
For an ascending perfect 5th, I hear the Star Wars theme or Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.
For a descending perfect 5th, I hear the Flintstones theme or Don’t You (Forget About Me) by the Simple Minds.
I made a list of reference songs for descending intervals that resonate with me and I practice singing them in random keys. E.g. Mamma Mia = a major 2nd, Hey Jude = a minor 3rd, etc. Use whatever works for you. 
It’s not so much about playing songs that use these intervals. It’s about recognizing them when you’re transcribing, and hearing them in your mind so you can reproduce (sing) them.
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Oh, I omitted the notes in the same way twice, good lord…
On my notes,
- I played an E4, perfect fifth was A3, but sang a B3
- I played a D#5, perfect fifth was G#4, but I sang an A#4
Don’t know how I managed to muck up typing them both but anyway…
Thanks for the song recs, I’ll noodle around with those familiar descending ones in different keys, it seems like a logical plan of attack. Cheers!
That makes sense. It happens to me too sometimes. What you’re basically doing is singing an ascending perfect fifth, but down an octave.
E4 => B4 (perfect 5th up) => B3 (octave down)
D#5 => A#5 (perfect 5th up) => A#4 (octave down)
You could use the same principle to practice the perfect 4th down. Imagine singing an ascending perfect 4th in your head and then sing it an octave lower.
E4 => A4 (perfect 4th up) => A3 (octave down)
D#5 => G#5 (perfect 4th up) => G#4 (octave down)
I sometimes do this for less common intervals that are wider or don’t have a song reference that I’m familiar with. E. g. when I want to sing a descending minor 7th, I imagine the ascending major 2nd and sing it an octave lower.
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I’ve made it through Module 5.1 of the Music Theory course and am taking a break from that to now integrate Ear Training into my guitar journey. The practical value of that integration is very rewarding. Looking forward to the road continuing ahead.
I never got a notification for this reply, so sorry for the late interaction!
I think I understand your reply… I’ve been noodling around on the guitar sussing it out since just reading it wasn’t enough for my beginner brain, I had to hear it. It is odd that my brain just swapped octaves though… I tried singing to compare the B3 and B4 and I couldn’t even match the B4 an octave lower until I had sung the A3 and then gone a step up… 
I’m not up to any other intervals yet… not sure how long I’m supposed to spend on this one, although I’m using the Flintstones to sing the descending and not mucking up. So I guess I can do it but I’m not sure if it is enough to have to always compare it to a song in my head, first, or if I’m supposed to be able to suss it out without the reference to have ‘got it’.
Good to know my stuff up was still some sort of pattern recognition after all, I guess!
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I’m glad I am not the only person who confuses the Superman Theme with the Star Wars Theme
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Super exciting lesson- I love the material oriented towards developing intuition. Thank you!
Hi Justin and team. I signed up over the weekend and am enjoying the content so far. I can hear melody intervals and pitch pretty well. E.g. If I have a chord sheet I can sit down at a piano and play most songs straight away, provided I have heard the melody. Likewise on a fretless bass I can play a note and sing the next note I want to play and hear whether my intonation is ok or not. Where I struggle with a song is being able to identify the chord sequence. I can hear where the chord changes are, but not whether it’s e.g. a 1 to a 4 or a 1 to a 5 I am hearing. Do later modules address hearing chord changes?
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Hello Simon, your first post - welcome to the JustinGuitar Community.
There’s a new series of live events for people joining JustinGuitar and the Community hosted by Fanny. More info here.
Having ability and ear-sense from playing bass and piano will be a massive help as you learn guitar. Hearing intervals and being able to play them on an instrument is a great thing.
In terms of hearing chord changes - when is one aspect, what (as you ask) is another.
I will offer two thoughts …
When playing bass, does your life will revolve around marking the chord changes by playing / referencing / dancing around the root notes?
Hopefully that with embellishments and walking bass lines and additional parts that enhance the piece.
Or at least root notes and 5ths if it is a simple bass part.
Following the path of the root notes is telling you which chord the harmonic structure is moving to.
If you are playing only roots, or only roots and 5ths, you will not be playing to the charcter of the chords - be they major or minor in type. That will only come out in your bass playing if you also play the 3rd of the underlying chord (major 3rd or minor - flat - 3rd).
I ask these questions and make these prompts to try to help you connect one instrument with another.
In terms of developing an inherent sense of chord movement, as you learn and play more songs (my mantra - learn songs, learn songs, learn songs) you will begin to know and recognise certain chord moves that happen all of the time. There are some chord progressions that are so ubiquitous that you will learn them bery quickly.
Example:
I, IV, V … rock & roll, blues and more … in any key … so that could be A, D, E or C, F, G or G, C, D etc.
I, V, vi, IV … everywhere in modern music … C, G, Am, F or D, A, Bm, G or G, D, Em, C etc.
@Richard_close2u thanks for the response. On bass I can play triads starting on 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers for major and minors and use them regularly. I occassionally use a 7th. I think a main part of my job as a bass player is giving the other band members the harmonic structure so that we don’t get lost in the song (or at least if we do it isn’t due to harmonic structure). I also use approach notes for the same reason. My start point when learning the song is roots, then I build the harmonic information once I have the chord sequence committed to memory (I’m not sure when I start thinking about groove, but that’s a different topic).
With a 12 bar blues and closely related 3 chord progressions I can hear the progression and am happy getting up on stage for a Jam. That’s a big improvement in the last 12 months for me. It’s when I get to 4 chords and beyond, that I struggle to hear the chord progression. Based on what you’ve said I think I’m probably not paying enough attention to chord sequences and relating that to other songs that I know in the same or related genres - I’ll try that.
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@simon_plays_bass
Do you ever write out structured song chord charts that allow you to see the repeating patterns and sequences?
As opposed to thinking of them / viewing them as long linesr sequences that you are forever chasing after?
See this post to understand my meaning. Trouble Memorizing Songs - #4 by Richard_close2u
@Richard_close2u sorry about the length of this.
I sometimes use a similar approach. I’ll write out repeating chord sequences using Roman numerals, and colour code each repeat sequence. Using the chord numbers makes it easier for me to transpose (a regular requirement in a church worship band) without having to think. The colours highlight the chord sequences. However I’ve been lazy and not done this much recently.
I can learn chord sequences quickly if I see them written down. A 4 chord song with 2 or 3 repeating sequences will take me 30 - 60 mins to memorise the chord sequence. I once depped for a gig that had a 16 song set, and learned all of them (including 5 originals that I’d never heard before) in less than 3 weeks, such that I could play them all confidently from memory.
However, if it is a new song that I have to transcribe it will take me much longer. e.g. “Everything but Love” by Jaime Kyle (the one I’ve most recently transcribed) took me all evening to transcribe the chords , and then most of another evening working out if I’d transcribed it correctly. It’s a pretty simple sequence for most of the song (I, iv, v and 1, v, iv for most of it with a couple of vi, and a vii in one place). Someone with a really good ear would have been able to play it almost straight off the bat (maybe missing the vii); a half decent ear would have been able to transcribe it more quickly than I did.
My chord chart for “Everything But Love” looks pretty similar to your structured one, though I have also written out the song structure (intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus and so on). I think I probably wrote the song structure prior to the chords.
It’s my inability to quickly recognise the chord progression that’s my musical gap, rather than the speed at which I can learn songs for which someone else has provided the chords.
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I had a think about what you’d written about common chord sequences. It might have produced one of those light bulb moments beloved of both coaches and those being coached 
. I made a Spotify play list of songs using 1, V, vi, IV (one of the progressions you mentioned), then one with 1, vi, IV, V (my Dad used to play Teenager in Love” a lot so I tend to strum that sequence regularly). Whilst searching for songs for the “1, vi, IV, V” progression, I discovered it is called the “50s progression” or “Doo wop progression”. Listening to the 2 playlists ( and rearranging them so the ones that are easiest to hear the progressions are early in the playlist) and realising that some genres are more likely to follow particular sequences, is helping me to recognise the chord progressions.
So thanks for the guidance. It has inspired me to have a go at the “Transcribing “ course whilst I’m on holiday (useful music practice stuff for when I don’t have an instrument with me). I did “All the small things” by Blink 182 on the outbound plane - it looks like I got fairly close but some room for improvement.