The thorny subject of AI

Hi Richard and All music lovers,

I last posted on this THORNY AI topic here ‘My thoughts on AI and music’ since then I have avoided making further statements about it whilst I considered further its impact and where AI and music is likely to take us.

Today a post was made by Clint @CT where he used AI to generate a song that emulates the feelings Leonard Cohen song ‘Hallelujah’. Before I go further I would like to emphasise this is not criticism of Clint, and hope he understands that my comments are observational, but what he did in producing ‘The Road to Ruin’ made me consider more deeply the impact of AI and its use in the Music world as a whole.

What struck me most about ‘The Road to Ruin’ was how to the casual listener it could be very appealing and make them want to hear more of the artist. Yes at times it does sound a bit overproduced and contrived but then so does a lot of music we hear on popular music outlets, radio or streaming services. The frightening aspect of this is what it implies the music industry could and is probably already doing with AI technology!

It does not take much imagination to realise that a big corporate music company can analyse its historical music catalogue and of others identifying the Artists and songs that have produced the most revenue and use AI to invent a new Artists and music. This has actually been done by them in the past, one of the most notable being ‘The Monkees’ a band invented by a music corporation in answer to ‘The Beatles’ in the 60’s, originally the members of ‘The Monkees’ could not play instruments, and they certainly did not write the songs, it was done by song writers and session musicians, and ‘The Monkees’ mimed when seen on film. It was a facadé pretending to be something it wasn’t, it caused a huge upset, fans feeling duped when they found out, real musicians angry at the manipulation and the realisation that they might have little control over their own destiny in the future if corporations did not like what they produced because it was not commercial or popular. I use this just as an example and I expect there have been many more over the years, boy and girl bands put together over the last 3 decades by record producers come to mind. To finish off about ‘The Monkees’, I was a big fan as a kid and they actually produced some very good songs whether written by themselves or not, and to their credit they did go on to learn and play instruments and perform live themselves.

The point I am trying to make is that now that the AI Genie is out of the bottle the music corporates are never going to not use it. The bad and frightening aspect for me is as AI music production and quality improves, and this will be at an exponential rate, it will soon become impossible to identify songs produced by it and performed by computer generated artists, if we are not already there. If it is used as I anticipate then artistic and human input will lost, and creation of music with soul and emotion may become a thing of the past.

My view is this - Music is an expression of the human condition, evoking feelings of joy, sadness, empathy, love, hate, fear and many more emotion, remove the human from its creation and it is no longer music in the true sense. Music produced by AI will just be a product.

i apologise for my ramblings but I think the question we need to ask ourselves is this.

Do we as a group of musicians and real music lovers want to support AI music on this forum or not? Personally AI and its use in music does not sit well with me.

Thanks for reading.

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Hi @AJSki2fly Adrian,

AI can be used in different ways during the song production process. Here is a list I wrote in a different thread.

  • Words
  • Music (chords)
  • Music (parts: melody, bass line, lead etc.)
  • Arranging
  • Playing of instruments
  • Lead vocals
  • Backing vocals
  • Recording
  • Engineering (eq, mixing, post recording effects, stereo placement etc.)
  • Mastering

We could say, “blanket ban”, or “anything goes, use what you like” or “you can use xyz, but not abc”. “Blanket ban” is easy to say, as is “anything goes”. “XYZ, ABC” less so.

I use AI for mastering. The songs sound better for being mastered. Distributors may refuse to release tracks that are not mastered (as I recall). I guess if I’m going to release a song I could put an unmastered version on this site and no links to the released mastered track - accepting that the unmastered version wouldn’t sound as good.

I don’t use it for anything else. I guess if I didn’t like doing the engineering part, I may use it for that, but as I like doing it then probably not. Anything earlier in my list I wouldn’t consider using AI for it.

This may muddy your question, but I think it’s more nuanced, unless we say “blanket ban” or “anything goes”.

Cheers, Simon

P.s. Note that I also use AI to remove bass tracks from songs (Moises etc.) and I suspect others do on here for guitar. I doubt this is what you referring to, but it is another use of AI in music.

Hi Simon

Thanks for replying. I was aware of the different areas AI can be used in creation and recording of music and or vocals.

I suspect you could add more aspects, for example AI has crept into software emulation to recreate Amp and Pedal sounds, BIAS FX with its newest version springs to mind, and probably a host others for guitar and other instruments. Is this acceptable or not, I am not sure?

I can understand why you might choose to use AI to assist in Mastering , excuse my ignorance is that necessary if you have engineered and created the final version? Is it that you are using it to mix down to a final stereo digital releases for different formats?

Engineering I would be quite uncomfortable with and anything before it, as this is allowing AI to manipulate or create something into something it wasn’t to get the best out of it. I suppose you could argue this is what engineers and producers do all the time, and it can shift the music and presentation well away from what was originally intended or recorded. But at least with humans at the helm it is more controllable one hopes, and if elements are not up to scratch the artist can be asked to do another take of that part.

I still sit with my statement:-

All the best

Adrian

The way I see it is this forum was created to help Justin’s student learn to play the guitar. It wasn’t created for people to post music created by technology. If you want to post music that you did not create yourself then find another forum. I’m sure there are lots of forums on the net where AI generated music has a huge following.

All I ask is when you post your AI generated music don’t try and pass it off as your own work. Do like CT and post it in the AI section so I don’t waste my time clicking on it. I have been helping Justin’s student learn to play guitar for a long time and have no interest in listening to over produced computer generated music.

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I’m just glad that Justin and the admins have allowed posting AI topics and music on this forum. This keeps the forum truly a cut above and way ahead of the curve, which shows forward thinking and understanding.

The ability to scratchpad songs with my acoustic guitar and then turn them into complete arrangements quickly --that are demo ready --is an amazing tool/innovation.

There will be no more bickering about AI for me, listen or don’t, like it or not, it’s all fair. AI music is here and the tools are getting better and are more ubiquitous.

Just know that I am only scratching the surface with AI, but I’m writing and playing my guitar as much (or more) than ever. At the end of the day I end up with something that I like to listen to.

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… and it does a fantastic job in that regard :grinning_face_with_big_eyes:

Err, Pardon me? And get rid of the whole ‘Just Chatting’ section, much of which has nothing to do with learning guitar or making music? Sharing non-guitar-related interests is part of what makes this community great. No one is expected to engage with content that doesn’t interest them.

Absolutely agree.
But ‘being honest’ is kind of a basic quality that we should expect from everyone, in all walks of life :folded_hands:

I don’t see eye to eye with @CT on a number of issues, but he’s absolutely right to use AI if he enjoys it, and if it helps him progress on his guitar journey, all the more power to him. (I hope to get around to listening to that track soon)

And finally, back to the comment that resurrected this dormant thread, I still don’t quite understand why people get upset about the fact that machines can be programmed to make music (that we increasingly can’t recognise as AI).
There is more quality human-made music out there than you could ever listen to, and it will continue to grow, as long as we exist. It’s what we do for enjoyment :grinning_face_with_big_eyes:
(Please do not respond pointing out problems with business models/money-making or the lack of it/environmental problems etc. I’m aware of those, but I’m just talking about the ‘value’ of AI music & tools here)
I believe having the AI-corner, along with a general openness telling how the songs we share were made, has worked out pretty well to date.

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We all have our views and AI brings out some strong opinion.

The one you expressed here Rick is not the policy of the JG Community and it runs counter to the stated guidance. Please continue to express your thoughts respectfully without telling people to find a different online forum.

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Im sorry but I m firmly against AI !

There is a section in the forum for people using it :

We all have to start at some point and most often then not we learn from our failures
so we shouldn t hide them behind AI
The community will always be here to help and support so there’s nothing to be ashamed in an AVOYP !
Be true to yourself !

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the topic is not a debate about AI please

and I never flagged anything here

as I said its not me who flagged posts and I merely gave an advice that stands to anyone using AI in their playing
since it may help beginners in the future
We already had people creating whole stuff in AI thus the creation of the special section

I should have been clearer thats all

I just realised that if someone posted something wholly in AI it would ruin the goal of this thread and I went on a different track following my idea :sweat_smile:

I hope you ll participate in the Christmas community AVOYP in 6 months :slight_smile:

I’ve found ChatGPT incredibly helpful. For me it’s just a new and far more advanced version of Google. If I search for information about something on Google it will give me a whole list of places where the information might be, but I will then have to search through those places to find out if that information is actually there or just mentioned.

ChatGPT eliminates all the wasted time. I was recently trying to get to grips with a new piece of DAW software. Instead of searching on Google and then watching multiple videos to try and get someone else to show me exactly what I’m looking for, I just ask ChatGPT and it knows the answer immediately. If I come across a problem it says there are 3 possible things I’ve done wrong and lists them.

I understand the fear that AI might take jobs and it’s totally legitimate. It will do. But it’s not going anywhere and it’s absurd to not use new technology that’s available. People saying they don’t like AI would be exactly the same as someone saying they didn’t like Google 25yrs ago. I don’t like it when people on YouTube create music using an AI agent and then claim it’s music by a legitimate music artist. It’s ripping off someone else’s image, voice, style etc., for your own gain. But using an AI agent as an advanced search engine is a game changer.

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@ChristianCole @GrumpyMac

Deborah I’m sure you wanted to be encouraging but yes you should have be clearer in your first reply to Christian as it actually started a debate on AI…no harm done I hope, we can all have different points of view and that’s fine as long as we try to be respectful to eachother. So I merged here the Off-Topic posts so that the Summer thread can be a joyful place oncemore.
Christian I hope you didn’t take much offence as I’m sure it wasn’t in Deborah’s intention to offend or judge…and I sincerely hope you will take part to our avoyps when you’ll feel confident enough to record and share; take your time and keep on practicing and playing using all the tools you think are the rigth ones for yourself.

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