When you change the root note you’re also changing the intervals between some of the notes so you can and should think relative moods. As I Said earlier and although not modes as such the easiest way to hear this is to play A minor pentatonic and then C major pentatonic. Both have exactly the same notes rearranged and sound totally different. Modes are exactly the same with two additional identical notes.
Hey Matt,
That’s good mate. Not quite sure though what point you’re trying to make here re your reference to me.
It appears you’re still misunderstanding my whole point.
Of course each note of a Major scale can act as the tonic for a relative mode of that parent scale. Thats pretty obvious isn’t it? My posts were rather about this being a myopic and limiting view of modes if seen as anywhere near a complete picture.
My original post about relative modes was out of concern for a member who I thought was perhaps concentrating too much on just patterns, and the relative approach, and was perhaps not at least investigating the more complete picture. In the end, I gave up on that discussion, as that person had already ‘learnt the modes’.
Sure, relative modes are a way of looking at modes, and can be helpful in some ways; but they are only a small part of the picture; an introduction to them, if you like. They don’t really give you the true sounds of the modes. And, from my learning and playing thus far, I see this relative perspective as the minor player, compared to the parallel perspective, which I see as the ‘guts’ of modes.
Your D Dorian progression, Dm - G, which you’ve labelled as a ii - V, is not really correct. It is a i-IV progression; typical Dorian, ala Pink Floyd etc. You’re still thinking C Major here, and without any resolution, when you should be thinking D, specifically the tonality of Dm.
Your own opening statement focused on the new note, eg D in C Major, becoming the tonic, and here you want to now call it the ii because its ‘Dorian’, thus pushing your IV to now function as a V? This to me is not helpful, nor is it logical.
Why does it have that Dorian sound? Because you’ve got that raised 6 ( functioning as a Major 3rd in the IV chord, G Major) that distinguishes it from that straight minor sound; and it gives it that ‘uplifting’, sometimes ‘dreamy 'sound. And you’re going from a minor i chord to a Major IV chord. And when you’re soloing, you’d likely be hitting that raised 6 note, particularly as its also the major 3rd of that IV chord. From my view, D Dorian is much more related to Dm ( and ultimately, to D Major) , than it is to C Major.
Again with your E Phrygian example. It doesn’t just ‘seem to be the go to progression for Phrygian’ for no reason. It is, because the F Major chord contains the distinctive b2 ( its root) that distinguishes it from the natural minor scale. And hopefully the melody would hone in on that note too. That’s why its going to sound the way it does. Again, for me here, its about the difference in sound from the D minor scale, not some relative relationship to C Major. It might help you find the diatonic chords quicker, and help with finding patterns, but that’s about it.
And your Aeolian example; yep fine. But remember, Aeolian and Ionian in reality, are much more than just modes aren’t they; they’re the 2 main tonalities, Major and Minor, as they are so intrinsic in music. That’s why in the examples above, I agree with many, more experienced than I, who view it as more logical, helpful, and musical, to see the modes essentially as deviations from these 2 main tonalities; and ultimately, all derived from the Major scale.
Now, none of us are experts here; otherwise we’d likely be somewhere else.
Im just continually learning like everyone else; and over time, my understanding will hopefully refine, like everyone else’s.
At present though, leaning more heavily into the parallel perspective gives me the clearest and most obvious picture both theoretically, and practically. I hope you can see why, from above. If you see it somewhat differently thus far, after investigating all the data, that’s perfectly fine with me.
Cheers, Shane
No it’s not, and the distinction is important, and particularly with a topic like modes, where tonics and root notes are shifting around, changing quality, function etc.
‘Root’ relate to chords
‘Tonic’ relates to scales/ keys, and modes.
Is that why Justin uses a big red R for all the scales he publishes. Open your mind a little 
I’ve cut you more than enough slack mate. Now its time to call you out.
You don’t know nearly as much as you think you do. That is pretty obvious, given many of your nonsensical posts.
To me, you just sound foolish, and juvenille.
You seem to spend most of your time defending that huge hurt ego of yours, rather than engaging in mature, rational discussion.
Now go and actually investigate tonic vs root. You may, or may not just learn something.
Time to pull your head in son.
I need no slack from your delusions, now calm down dear shane, youll do yourself an injury.
Guys, with all due respect, let me recommend you check this album out before this “discussion” escalates further:
No need to be mean to each other.
Very revealing. Adieu.
Bon débarras
Frank Zappa?
Seriously. Are you trying to start an argument?!
This is like asking “If my band is playing a C major progression and I rip out an A minor solo will the solo sound like C major?” I have no idea. I just wouldn’t do that. But there are no rules in music and you could try it out for yourself. Easy if you have a looper. Maybe it would sound awful, maybe it would sound great, maybe it would sound so awful that it sounds great. Get a looper and try things. It’s fun and helps with learning modes.
Also, maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at. I dont have to start the solo on C. I can start anywhere. Starting on the tonic is just one option, and not always the most interesting one. You could start on a chord tone like the 3rd or 5th. You could start with a leading tone, something that’s a semitone above or below the tonic, in this case B. It’s a creative process.
No, it isn’t. Not for someone new to music. The vast majority of songs are written in a major key or a minor key, not a mode.
According to a study on Spotify, over 99% of songs are written in either a major or minor key.
- Major keys: Account for around 66.1% of songs.
- Minor keys: Account for around 33.7% of songs.
That’s how it is. They have not been exposed to modes. If a beginner sees an Am-D chord progression it’s not going to be obvious to him/her that these two chords are from the G parent major scale. Why would it? The G chord isn’t even being played. Since it starts with Am they more likely to think they are in the key of Am. The D chord won’t look out of place. You and I know that the key of Am has a Dm chord and not a D chord. That comes from experience.
Cmon man.What are you talking about mate? You are playing silly word games. I was clarifying an obvious point you made, simple as that; nothing to do with ‘new’ users. And this was a very minor passing point in the discussion, as its at such a basic level.
You’re being frivolous here. I cant take this seriously.
Cheers, Shane
I was just merely alluding to the fact that this thread has been devolving into a series of personal attacks back and forth.
@Richard_close2u It might be time to pull the plug on this one.
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My apologies Jozsef. It was meant as a joke. Frank Zappa can be quite a divisive character in discussion forums! It wasn’t meant as a knock against you.
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Oh, no need to apologize 
I didn’t know he’s supposed to be a divisive person. I’m a fan of his, myself. The title of his records just came to mind and I thought it could serve as a tongue-in-cheek but also practical advice to Shane and Greg to stop slagging each other and just continue to play the way they feel like playing. It’s clear they approach the topic of modes differently, but the discussion stopped being constructive (to me, at least) pretty soon.
But I still think that by and large this Community has been immune from this kind of nastiness, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who’d like it to stay that way.
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Back on topic …
It is in my modes topic, but I know that is an extensive read. So I shall offer what I hope is a short comment.
Major and minor key music is far and away the most prevalent and familiar. For major and minor key music, you can basically use any - as many as you wish - of the seven (six if you’re avoiding diminished) diatonic chords. and create a reasonable sounding harmonic structure for a song. Then the melodic content will be major scale or minor scale. Easy peasy.
Often in minor keys, the ‘five chord’ is altered to a major or dominant 7th chord, which affects the scale (harmonic minor is needed - but that is not a story for now).
Modal music is different. That is not just because the intervals of the scale are different when compared to the parallel major scale either. Music is much more than melody. It is different because the harmonic structure of modal chord progressions is usually composed in a different way. Modal music tends not to draw upon all of the seven diatonic chords. It uses a very limited number of chords which are selected because they contain the all-important colour tones of the mode. This is why you often see 2-chord or 3-chord vamps for modal music. Extension chords (major or minor 7ths) or sus chords can be used to specifically include a colour tone. And it is the mixture of the harmony (specifically chosen chords) along with the melody (which will be targeting the colour tones) that makes for modal music.
An imaginary song in G major using six diatonic chords.
| G | D | Bm | G |
| Em | C | D | Am |
| Bm | C | D | G |
An imaginary song in A minor using six diatonic chords (but the five chord is a dominant 7).
| Am | Fmaj7 | G | Am |
| Dm | C | E7 | Am |
| G | Dm | E7 | Am |
An imaginary song in D Dorian (using select chords that contain the natural 6 colour tone - the note B in this example).
| Dm | Dm | G | G |
| Dm | Dm | Em7 | Em7 |
| Dm | Dm | Asus2 | Dm |
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Brilliant summary Richard as usual. Thats why I see the parallel and relative argument as pretty pointless in that both methods make sense and work when practising them. But once you know them you generally play in only one mode the majority of the time over a note, chord or backing track etc so you need to be able to play each mode in isolation and get that modal sound.
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… and on the other hand … 