Understanding & learning modes in their own right, as part of the major scale system and using CAGED shapes

[liaty]

@liaty

The way I understand modes is that they are an offset of another scale. The same notes but you make the root note or start the scale in a different position.

@Richard_close2u

That is often how they are taught - “it’s the major scale but starting on a different note”. I think that particular approach to teaching and learning modes does a disservice to being able to understand, hear and use modes for musical creativity. Modes are scales (with unique intervals and chords) in their own right. Hence I wrote such a large topic in seven parts.

I did wonder, why nobody else was mentioning it and taught each mode as a same as xyz with a flat 7th or whatever. I thought I was a genius when I realised the A minor scale was the C major scale just starting from a different place

[sclay]

I joined a theory group on Facebook recently, and all they ever seem to do is argue back and forth about what modes are. Wont be a member much longer methinks.
Like @Richard_close2u explained, modes are essentially scales, derived the major scale, as is everything else.
That " major scale starting on a different note" view is a pattern recognition thing, and has little musical value in my view.

Grateful I was taught the right way by Justin, and knowlegeable folk like Richard and others here.
Proof again that all the good sauce is right here at Justin Guitar!

Cheers, Shane

[Richard_close2u]

@sclay

That " major scale starting on a different note" view is a pattern recognition thing, and has little musical value in my view.

Great summary Shane.
It is a short cut route to trying to teach people who know one or more major scale patterns that they then must, necessarily and logically, know all of the scale patterns for every mode of the major scale. It is kind of true in terms of finger placement. But with huge caveats and drawbacks. Muscle memory and familiarity of starting on and ending on certain notes and emphasising certain notes can make a player subconsciously get pulled back to major scale playing, away from modal playing. The intervals and the colour notes are all different in modal play.

[Gregba]

A little resurrection - Well that’s two with one view, all people don’t think the same though. I love patterns, I use 7 Caged patterns for the major scale. I know some don’t like that but it works for me, 7 modes seven patterns, want Lydian, pattern 4 is home pattern, want locrian pattern 7, same as pattern 1 is home base although you can of course play any mode in any or all patterns. I think pattern thinking is fine as is starting on a different note as long as you also understand that by doing so your also changing intervals with other notes and of course know the modal colour notes. I also used patterns for learning the 145 chords and 236 chords within the major scales, theres only 5 major scale patterns used for this and 5 145 and 5 236 patterns within those 5 scale patterns. Once you learn them well they can be played without thinking patterns much at all. Each to there own I say

[stitch]

@Gregba

I use 7 Caged patterns for the major scale

Using 7 patterns is called 3NPS. CAGED 5 only 5.

@Gregba

I know some don’t like that but it works for me,

Don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t like it, it’s a good way to look at a fret board and work better than CAGED for shredding and modes as you have pointed. Guitar are pattern based instruments and once a person understand this it makes it alot easier. Seperating the 3 major and minor chords and learning them in relationship to the parent scale is also a good idea. Sound like you’ve found a good way to work your way around the fret board.

[Gregba]

@stitch No I use 7 caged although 2 are duplicated for modes,each pattern home base for each respective mode.

For the 236 I do this.

I’d share my 145 too but it’s just a scribbled mess until I transfer it to neck diagrams

[sclay]

Hey Greg,

I recall you mentioning awhile ago, this 7 pattern CAGED system you’ve come up with. Now that I see it, I’m just curious as to what you’re actually seeing.

I am guessing you are thinking, the first pattern is G Major ( Ionian)
The second pattern, A Dorian, the third pattern , B Phrygian etc. So modes in a series. ie from a ‘start on a different note’ perspective?

How are you seeing the ‘real’ musical modes. ie Modes in parallel, against the same tonic?

So the tonic G, remains the same, and you can cycle through the 7 modes by altering certain degrees of the scale ( eg. Mixolydian - 7 > b7).

I suppose, another way of saying it. Musically, do you see say A Dorian as the second ‘mode’ of the G Major scale, or the second mode if the A major scale?

The 5 CAGED shapes logically, and elegantly, accommodate all the modes; so in each position ( EDCAG ) , you can cycle through all the modes both from a serial, or more musically, a parallel perspective.

I’m just struggling to see why you are adding 2 duplicates to this already complete and fully functioning system.

Cheers, Shane

[Matt125]

@Gregba

I use 7 Caged patterns for the major scale.

There shall be only FIVE CAGED shapes, no more, no less. FIVE shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be FIVE. Six shalt thou not count, neither count thou four, excepting that thou then proceed to FIVE. Seven is right out!

[jacksprat]

The Holy Caged System.

[Gregba]

Hi Shane, im just saying i used 7 to learn modes rather than 5 although as you can see there are two duplicates in 1 and 7 and 3&4. so in any mode when plating there are only 5 patterns to play through. The 7 was about finding the starting point or home case for each mode in any key. A bit like the pentatonic right, most learn pattern 1 minor first and even when tou learn the other pentatonic positions it can take a while to learn to start on a Pattern other than one, so I called pattern 1 home base. The use of 7 major scale patterns as my graphic showed was to quickly identify home base in any key in any mode. I quickly learnt that once I knew where home base was it was apparent that all major modes started with their first mote (from an e string) on the note before the root note and all minor modes started on the root in terms of home base, the exception being Mixolydian starting on the root in pattern 4 (or pattern 3 to you). So it’s just a way of thinking really rather than application . in terms of parallel and series modes I see that as a bit of a waste of time really that complicates modes massively for no practical reason. For modes in parallel I just see them as modes, if i wanted to play any mode in say C home case would start on fret 7 or 8 (caveat for mixo as above) using the relevant pattern, so in my head for example Lydian pattern 4 or locrian pattern 7 etc.

Now I’m not saying I’m right and everyone else is wrong, I’m simply saying we are all doing the same thing but thinking about it slightly differently and this method simplified playing modes for me. Finally I never dreamt up the 7 patterns, my tutor presented them to me, when I first saw it I said why 7 patterns and two duplicates, so I’m quietly confident I’m not alone

[Gregba]

Oh @Matt125 open your mind, you’ll be telling me theres only two genders next

[sclay]

@Gregba

. in terms of parallel and series modes I see that as a bit of a waste of time really that complicates modes massively for no practical reason

Hmm. I think you’re missing the entire point of modes. Modes are colours/flavours/ sounds of the Major scale.
And parallel vs series is not a complication. Its at the very core of the entire topic.

Seeing modes from this parallel perspective, which is the only real musical perspective, will allow you to eventually both hear exactly what these modes sound like, and how to utilise them. It will also illuminate and ingrain the distincive notes/ degrees that make each mode unique.
This parallel view is really what the modes are all about.

By seeing modes just in a series, ie same scale but starting on a different note, you will never truly hear the modes and start to get them ingrained in you ear. You are changing the tonic each time, so you have no reference no ‘grounding’. Modes are not Major scales that start on a different note. This is mainly just a convenient way of initially seeing them.

It is the modes variation, from the Major scale, that is whole point, along with the different sounding progressions that are derived from them.

A simple exercise should illuminate all the above.
( Do both 1 and 2 below just in Pattern1’. No need to go up the fretboard)

1. Use C Major scale, and play the 7 modes that have C Major as their parent scale. Ie.

C Ionian - CDEFGAB
D Dorian - DEFGABC
E Phrygian - EFGABCD
F Lydian - FGABCDE
G Mixolydian - GABCDEF
A Aeolian - ABCDEFG
B Locrian - BCDEFGA

2. Now play the 7 modes of C Major

C Ionian - C D E F G A B
C Dorian - C D E♭ F G A B♭ C
C Phrygian - C D♭ E♭ F G A♭ B♭ C
C Lydian- C D E F♯ G A B C
C Mixolydian - C D E F G A Bb
C Aeolian - C D E♭ F G Ab B♭
C Locrian - C D♭ E♭ F G♭ A♭B♭.

I hope you can hear the difference here; and see all the modal information contained in (2) that does not exist in (1).

(1) is simply walking up the C Major scale, starting on a different note each time. Its not really modes.

(2) is the sound ( and notes/ intervals) of the 7 modes of C Major.

So rather than being a waste of time, it is the exact thing you need to learn, hear, and apply.
You are of free to persue it however you wish, but I’d urge you to seriously consider the above.

Cheers, Shane

[Gregba]

Well it’s ok to agree to disagree @sclay
Practically you never play modes in parallel one after the other unless you want to understand how to play nodes in parrellel but musically its irrelevant, you play them over a modal chord progression or backing track and need to understand the intervals and the modal colour notes. If I was to ask you to play Lydian over a Lydian backing track or any other mode for that matter why would you think in relative or parallel modes, it makes no sense, only makes sense in theory or on paper. You can make your option 1 or 2 sound modal if you understand the intervals are also changing in option one and you understand those intervals and correct colour notes. From my perspective I think your too deep in the theory drivel if you believe relative mores dont sound modal, which leads me to think its you who is missing the point of modes, it’s simply a different sound based on differing intervals and unique colour notes of each.

[Jozsef]

Before you delve deeper into who understands modes correctly and who doesn’t, and if anyone is interested in reading a comprehensive introduction to the topic, check this out:

Modes Parts 1 - 9

INDEX Modes Part 1 - An introduction, an Adventure, an Exploration. Modes Part 2 - Modes in Series. Modes Part 3 - Modes in Parallel. Modes Part 4 - Modal Melodies: the Sound of the Modes? Modes Part 5 - The Colour of Modes: A Digression. Modes Part 6 - Chords Associated with the Modes. Modes Part 7 - A Simple and Manageable Step Towards Modal Improvisation. Modes Part 8 - A First Look at Building Modal Chord Progressions. Modes Part 9 - Some Backing Tracks.

Also, I’m one of the last people to complain about too much music theory, but this is a PMT Grade 4 lesson and modes are introduced only in PMT Grade 7. The last few posts may be better placed in those lessons’ threads.

@Richard_close2u I believe some of the posts related to modes and the CAGED system could be moved to a separate thread for the sake of clarity and ease of reference.

[Gregba]

Relative modes sound very different and unique to me.

How to Solo Across the Fretboard Using Modes (Part 1) - "Relative Modes"

Have a listen and see if you still think they all sound like the major scale @sclay

[stitch]

@Richard_close2u @DavidP can you please move starting @ post 75 to its own thread. All of this has nothing to do with this lesson specific thead.

[sclay]

Nonsense. I give up. You learn them how you see fit.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

5 Caged patterns.
7 modes.
35 patterns.
Simples.

[stitch]

5 CAGED patterns
7 Modes
Still 5 paterns. Just repeated 7 times from a diferent note.

[Gregba]

Bingo @stitch