Thanks @Richard_close2u Richard, your explanation filled some gaps, and now I understand this topic much better. 
1 Like
Glad it has helped Colin 
This has a useful pattern for remembering the gaps (or at least it does with my maths / music theory / piano player’s type brain).
If the next note you are going to in CAGED is the letter of the relative minor the jump is 3 semi-tones (capo moves 3 frets). If it isn’t then it is 2 semi tones (capo moves 2 frets). E.g A is the relative minor of C, so 3 frets; G is 2 semitones from A so 2 frets.
Or the other way round: if the notes are 2 semi-tones (“steps” in American) apart the capo moves 2 frets; if they aren’t it moves 3 frets.
2 Likes
This post is more a check for understanding, hence I kept it separate from the post above.
So CAGED works for capo placement as per the discussion above. What if a song is in Eb or F say (or B or any non CAGED key)? There are loads of songs in Eb written and performed by pianists (Stevie Wonder and Elton John for example), or bands that tune down to Eb standard. (E.g Green Day).
I only have one electric guitar so tuning to Eb, then back to E in a covers gig isn’t going to work. Is the following correct for a song in Eb with the guitar tuned to E standard?
D is a semi-tone below Eb. So I can play the chords in the key of D with the capo at the 1st fret.
If I want to play with key of C chords then add 2 frets (as per the CAGED pentagon diagram in the post above): capo 3.
If I want to play with key of A chords, then add 3 frets: capo 6.
Key of G chords, add 2 frets: capo 8
Key of E chords, add 3 frets: capo 11
Add 2 more for key of D: capo 13 (this one is redundant as we’d use Capo 1), so I’m just mentioning it to show it is an octave above where I started.
Is this reasoning correct, and is this applicable to any key that is not CAGED?
1 Like
You don’t need to know anything about CAGED to be able to use a capo to change keys or to remain in the same key and play different chord shapes. You simply need to know that the capo raises the tonality with respect to the key whose chord grips you are playing.
So, if you are playing chords in the key of D and you put a capo on fret 1, you are raising the tonality from D to D# (or equivalently Eb). That’s all there is to it. If you put the capo on fret 3 you’d be in the key of F.
Now, in your case you want to find a combination of capo position/chords played to give you a certain key, so you have to kind of reason backwards, i.e. if I play chords from key of D, where should I put the capo? Sometimes this takes some trial and error, since the resulting capo position might not be practical. If you’d chosen G instead of D, well Eb is 8 semitones above G, so the capo should go on fret 8 (as you wrote above). That’s quite high on the neck, so you might choose to play chords from a different key.
Note that you don’t need any diagram and/or adjust for non-CAGED keys. You just need to know the number of semitones between the key you want to play in and the key you want to hear.
1 Like
I agree with an all the factual information you have provided @jjw particularly wrt relative pitch and how one can use a capo to make use of it.
The way my brain works is along the lines of: understand, find a pattern, maybe use a simple diagram; if I can relate it to other bits of theory I know, particularly the maths side of music theory then so much the better.
Richard’s explanation ticked a number of those boxes for me. I then wanted to see if I could extend his explanation to any key. Hence my post. If it does, I have a quick and repeatable way of getting to the best (for me) capo position quickly.
I’ve seen a few guitar players needing to quickly make a decision on where to place a capo, and getting a little stressed because they aren’t able to make that decision quickly. Mostly this has just been poor preparation, but not always.
I appreciate not everyone’s brain works the same way as mine (thank goodness 
) and for many people your explanation will suffice, whilst my way of thinking would confuse. Vive la difference (I’m currently in France ).
1 Like
I’m going to assume you understand the CAGED system because you reference it a lot.
Think of the capo as your index finger when using the CAGED chords. What ever chord you want to play using CAGED chord shapes that’s where the capo goes. Just like if you play a E chord but barre it at the first fret it’s an F chord. If you play and Am chord and barre it at the 2nd fret it’s a Bm. That’s all the capo does.
So playing a song in the Key of A that has a Bm chord if you place the Capo on the 2nd fret and play a G chord the Bm becomes and Am. If you know where the root of your chord is then you will know where the capo goes.
The advantage of using a capo is you can play chord progression without having to use Barre chords or so you can change the chord voicing using different chord shapes and stay in the same key.
The second use is to change the Key of a song without changing the chord shapes.
1 Like
You credit me with too much knowledge @stitch Rick . 90pct of My knowledge of CAGED is what @Richard_close2u has written above. The intent of my post was to check whether that could be extended to other keys (using Eb as an example).
……and that’s the other 10pct of my CAGED knowledge
1 Like
Good spot Simon. I hadn’t seen that and it could help with using the tool.
Good question. I will answer more fully, separately.
The short answer is yes.
All true John. This topic is explicitly about staying in the same key but being reminded of the more widely known use of a capo is no bad thing.
I do see your logic and if you can make that thinking work all good. Let’ say the chord progression is:
| Eb | Gm | Ab | Cm |
| Bb | Fm | Bb | Eb |
Now, I put capo at fret 8. Are you able to immediately convert those chord names from the key of Eb into chord grips / shapes with your capo at fret 8? If yes, all power to you. If no, my capo conversion chart takes care of every step.
1 Like
Using my Capo Conversion Chart for songs not in the keys of C, A, G, E or D.
I had not addressed this earlier and left a gap in the overall approach. @simon_plays_bass has asked about songs in the key of Eb, or F or B etc.
I will deal with the latter two initially, given that CAGED plus B and F completes the full set of ‘natural’ notes.
I will then follow with a look at flat or sharp keys.
1 Like
Example in the key of F.
F is an E-shape barre chord. Therefore it makes sense to start from something we do know - applying the capo conversion chart to the key of E, and making an adjustment. The adjustment will be an offset of one fret because E and F are one semitone apart.
Chord progression:
| F | Bb | Gm | C |
| I | IV | ii | V |
We need to jump onto the Capo Conversion Chart in order to start using it.
F is one semitone higher than E. If we place a capo at fret 1 we now view from the perspective of the key of E and use the Roman numeral description of our chord progression as a guide for the chord shapes.
| I | IV | ii | V |
| E-shape | A-shape | F#m-shape | B-shape |
Moving clockwise around the chart means the next step is Capo +2 from its current position, which means capo at fret 3. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of D perspective, becomes:
| I | IV | ii | V |
| D-shape | G-shape | Em-shape | A-shape |
Moving clockwise around the chart another step means the next step is another Capo +2 from its current position, which means capo at fret 5. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of C perspective, becomes:
| I | IV | ii | V |
| C-shape | F-shape | Dm-shape | G-shape |
Moving clockwise one more step around the chart means the next step is Capo +3 from its current position, which means capo at fret 8. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of A perspective, becomes:
| I | IV | ii | V |
| A-shape | D-shape | Bm-shape | E-shape |
1 Like
Example in the key of B.
B is an A-shape barre chord. Therefore it makes sense to start from something we do know - applying the capo conversion chart to the key of A, and making an adjustment. The adjustment will be an offset of two frets because A and B are two semitones apart.
Chord progression:
| B | G#m | E | F# |
| I | vi | IV | V |
We need to jump onto the Capo Conversion Chart in order to start using it.
If we place a capo at fret 2 we now view from the perspective of the key of A and use the Roman numeral description of our chord progression as a guide for the chord shapes.
| I | vi | IV | V |
| A-shape | F#m-shape | D-shape | E-shape |
Moving clockwise around the chart means the next step is Capo +2 from its current position, which means capo at fret 4. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of G perspective, becomes:
| I | vi | IV | V |
| G-shape | Em-shape | Cm-shape | D-shape |
Moving clockwise around the chart another step means the next step is another Capo +3 from its current position, which means capo at fret 7. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of E perspective, becomes:
| I | vi | IV | V |
| E-shape | C#m-shape | A-shape | B-shape |
1 Like
Example in the key of Eb.
Eb is exactly midway between D and E.
We have several options for capo placement.
**Option 1 - viewing Eb as an E-shape chord with a negative 1 start point (relative to the open strings / nut).
We apply the capo conversion chart to the key of E and adjust by an offset of -1 because Eb is one semitone lower than E.
Chord progression:
| Eb | Gm | Cm | Bb |
| I | iii | vi | V |
We need to jump onto the Capo Conversion Chart in order to start using it.
Eb is one semitone lower than E. Because we are below the nut, we can only describe the progression using these chord shapes, we can not actually play it in the key of Eb.
| I | iii | vi | V |
| E-shape | G#m-shape | C#m-shape | B-shape |
Now we can begin moving clockwise around the chart. The first step is Capo +2 from its current position (which is -1 remember), which means capo at fret 1. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of D perspective, becomes:
| I | iii | vi | V |
| D-shape | F#m-shape | Bm-shape | A-shape |
Moving further clockwise around the chart another step means the next step is another Capo +2 from its current position, which means capo at fret 3. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of C perspective, becomes:
| I | iii | vi | V |
| C-shape | Em-shape | Am-shape | G-shape |
Moving clockwise another step around the chart means the next step is Capo +3 from its current position, which means capo at fret 6. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of A perspective, becomes:
| I | iii | vi | V |
| A-shape | C#m-shape | F#m-shape | E-shape |
Moving clockwise one more step around the chart means the next step is Capo +2 from its current position, which means capo at fret 8. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of G perspective, becomes:
| I | iii | vi | V |
| G-shape | Bm-shape | Em-shape | D-shape |
1 Like
Example in the key of Eb.
Eb is exactly midway between D and E.
We have several options for capo placement.
**Option 2 - viewing Eb as a D-shape chord with a +1 start point.
We apply the capo conversion chart to the key of D and adjust by an offset of +1 because Eb is one semitone higher than D.
Chord progression:
| Eb | Cm | Ab | Bb |
| I | vi | IV | V |
We need to jump onto the Capo Conversion Chart in order to start using it.
Eb is one semitone higher than D. With capo at fret 1 we play the following chard shapes.
| I | vi | IV | V |
| D-shape | Bm-shape | G-shape | A-shape |
Now we can begin moving clockwise around the chart. The first step clockwise is Capo +2 from its current position, which means capo at fret 3. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of C perspective, becomes:
| I | vi | IV | V |
| C-shape | Am-shape | F-shape | G-shape |
Moving clockwise another step around the chart means the next step is Capo +3 from its current position, which means capo at fret 6. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of A perspective, becomes:
| I | vi | IV | V |
| A-shape | F#m-shape | D-shape | E-shape |
Moving clockwise one more step around the chart means the next step is Capo +2 from its current position, which means capo at fret 8. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of G perspective, becomes:
| I | vi | IV | V |
| G-shape | Em-shape | C-shape | D-shape |
1 Like
Example in the key of Eb.
Eb is exactly midway between D and E.
We have several options for capo placement.
**Option 3 - viewing Eb as an E-shape barre chord with a +11 start point for the capo.
We apply the capo conversion chart to the key of E with an initial adjustment of of -1, because Eb is one semitone lower than E, and then move anti-clockwise (lowering the position of the capo).
Chord progression:
| Eb | Bb | Cm | Ab |
| I | V | vi | IV |
We need to jump onto the Capo Conversion Chart in order to start using it.
We start with the capo already in place, at fret 11 and use the following chord shapes.
| I | V | vi | IV |
| E-shape | B-shape | C#m-shape | A-shape |
Now we can begin moving anti-clockwise around the chart, away from the key of E. The first step is Capo -3 from its current position, which means capo at fret 8. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of G perspective, becomes:
| I | V | vi | IV |
| G-shape | D-shape | Em-shape | C-shape |
Moving further anti-clockwise around the chart means the next step is another Capo -2 from its current position, which means capo at fret 6. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of A perspective, becomes:
| I | V | vi | IV |
| A-shape | E-shape | C#m-shape | D-shape |
Moving anti-clockwise another step around the chart means the next step is Capo -3 from its current position, which means capo at fret 3. The chord progression, described as shapes drawn from the key of C perspective, becomes:
| I | V | vi | IV |
| C-shape | G-shape | Am-shape | G-shape |
2 Likes
@Richard_close2u thanks for taking the time to update this topic following my questions. Your explanations and examples are all clear to me.
1 Like
I think so. I would first rewrite the chord progression in Roman numerals. Then I would calculate the I chord: 8 semitones lower than Eb is G. Then I would play the Roman numeral chords in the key of G.
This seems simpler to me, but I realize different approaches work better for different people.
1 Like
Hi @Richard_close2u @stitch and the rest of you learned community.
This is something I have revisited several times. I feel comfortable that I understand everything discussed so far in this thread (albeit sometimes I have to really think about it rather than just know it straight of the top of my head).
I just wanted to clarify two points with the way I think about it if I can as I tend to do most of this just in my head but now want to make sure I’m correct.
1): With the placing of a capo and using different shapes to remain in the same key - I tend to have always thought of it as follows-
Say I’m playing G D Am in the open position and now I’m placing the Capo on 2.
To play in the same key in my head I would just move 2 semitones down from G to F, 2 down from D to C and 2 down from Am to Gm without applying the Nashville numbers to them.
So first up would I be correct? 
2): This leads me to the rest of this example so if the above is correct the next progression in the song (pretty sure you’ve got by now 
) is G D C.
So if I use the same method in my head I go from G D C to F C Bb 
Really! Bb.
Again does this sound correct?
Ok so, I the real world I’m not choosing to actually do this but it was an example that came to mind to use. If I had the Capo in position 2 and still played the original chords I would just have raised the key, and I’m thinking the key would be A instead of G (2 semitones higher) Correct?
Thanks guys, appreciate your input 
Craig
EDIT:
Actually this example seems to work well using open and Capo 5
Adding Roman numerals to that you have:
I → V → ii then I → V → IV
… [then] … Capo on 2. To play in the same key I would just move 2 semitones down from G to F, 2 down from D to C and 2 down from Am to Gm … and … G D C [become] F C Bb … would I be correct?
Yes. All good.
Capo 2 above the key of G falls in between the moves illustrated in my capo conversion chart so you do need to do some figuring out for yourself.
If I had the Capo in position 2 and still played the original chords I would just have raised the key, and I’m thinking the key would be A instead of G (2 semitones higher) Correct?
Yes.
1 Like
@CD02 Your train of thought is correct but I find it easier to think of the chord shapes I want to use then figure out where the capo goes rather than putting the capo on then figuring out the chord.
Using your examples and staying in the same key
G D Am I would think “what would add to the sound and not just add more of the same notes.” I find placing the capo on the first 3 frets just add the same notes(pitch) just in a different spot.
A nice sounding G would be the D shape. The root is on the D string 5th fret so that where the capo would go and the chord progression would be D A Em. This would bring in a new tonal value to the progression and blend nicely with the other guitar.
Like Richard I’d get the chords using Chord progression but I think of them a little differently as well.
I would think Root D, 5th A and 2nd Em.
For you second example I’d probably put the capo on the some fret and use D (R) A (5th) and G(4th)
1 Like