Can we discuss the quality of feedback on recordings? IMHO it has become too positive

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Interesting discussion. Not sure how much more I can add, but I might as will give my two cents.

I am definitely guilty of not spending as much time in the AVOYP area as I would like to. I think I just get overwhelmed with the volume and there is so much that I would like to see/comment on that I just don’t let myself get sucked in too much. When I do have time to watch, I think I’m really focusing on enjoying the music and almost treating it like a mini concert. I’m singing along and not focusing so much on watching with a constructive eye. But that is just how I personally watch.

I think I also fall into the trap of being a new-ish player myself and second guessing whether any constructive feedback I could provide would actually be helpful. That’s probably just a mental hurdle I need to get over though :laughing:

I am also conscious of the statistic that a lot of people quit guitar in the first year of playing. I wouldn’t want the comments to veer too far into the critical area that people don’t want to post anymore or even give up altogether. On the flip side, constructive feedback can and will help people improve, so I’m torn on this one.

I guess I think that if someone is looking for more constructive feedback that mentioning that when they share the video will help the people watching know what kind of comments they are looking for. I know there are many community members that do this already when they post.

One of the best things about this community IMO is how supportive and welcoming it is to all skill levels. I feel like the people that do post constructive feedback still are able to frame it in a way that is positive.

Ok, I’ll end this ramble now :laughing:

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I suppose @stitch that one can only provide the input. Whatever the other person wants to do with it is up to them.

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My wife & I are always saying that having kids taught us more than anything else in our lives… How many parents out there have been asked “ Dad/Mom, why are you doing that? Why don’t you do it this way instead?” You stand there & marvel at their simplicity. I introduced my 13 year old grandson to guitar and Justin’s lessons last month… he watched me play & watched Justin play. After a few minutes he pointed out that my A chord was “wrong” & I had to explain that I’d learned the A chord long before I started with Justin & was having a hard time relearning it Justin’s way. Point being, a total newcomer to guitar, one week in can bring valid & constructive feedback to someone who has been playing for years… and that’s pretty huge if you ask me! :+1:t2:

Tod

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Thanks for raising this topic @jkahn, an interesting read and a great discussion (which I realise has been raised before at least once or twice since even I have been here, but is good to revisit).
So, confession time perhaps… I believe am a terrible offender of this :grimacing:
“Hi, my name is Jeff and I’m a toxic positive person” :pensive: :joy:
But in saying that, I am almost always impressed with the AVOYP posts on this forum and genuinely enjoy the experience of watching folks play and perform, whatever the level. I understand how there can be a lot of work that goes into it and how challenging it can be to put something out into a (semi)public forum. Despite the OP’s level, people often display skills and techniques in areas I don’t have competency, for example finger style, playing and singing or just singing in general. There are very few posts where someone hasn’t taken the time to work on something properly before sharing it (or they will mention it is a just a fun “hit-out” in their opening thread, in which case comments are made appropriate to that scenario). I’ll admit I probably come across overly positive and often don’t comment constructively. The latter can be for the following reasons (and I am sorry for this and hope to improve in the future :face_with_peeking_eye:)…
Giving constructive feedback is hard and requires a lot of effort (which could be a bigger factor here than directly alluded to in the posts above? :thinking:). It involves concentration, intelligent consideration, understanding of technique (and the OP themselves to a degree), courage and confidence. I need to first realise there is an issue, be somewhat confident that I understand what that issue is or at least have some insight into it worth mentioning… consider the other person’s playing ability and understand the best way to deliver that feedback to them without being too harsh or, conversely, not direct enough and then have the time, courage and conviction to post that comment. This is a lot to consider when evaluating an AVOYP that someone may have spent the last few weeks or month working on (not always the case I realise). I feel I need to be very confident in my opinion and assessment of these factors before I am comfortable sharing my thoughts in that manner, and I’d say it is quite rare that I have that confidence. Although, I appreciate there is a HIGH chance I am overthinking all this! :joy: Plus all of this needs to be done when there’s the willingness and brain-capacity to be of critical mind. I also struggle with that at times (probably due to the over-thinking thing again! :laughing:). So I confess I focus more on the positives (and there are often many, I might add! :partying_face:) than what could be improved on. I understand that this is perhaps not in the spirit of “pay it forward” and I should perhaps comment less but be more helpful when I do. However, often I just want to congratulate people for the effort and skill they’ve displayed and let them know I watched and thoroughly enjoyed the performance that they have taken the time to share.
Before ending, I would like to acknowledge everyone that has provided constructive feedback to my posts in the past though, as (clearly!) I realise this comes with a burden of effort and consideration which I greatly appreciate (and gives me pangs of guilt for not doing it more). The feedback I have received here has helped me immensely and guided my focus on areas I most likely would have overlooked, so am certainly in favour of receiving it! Just delivering it is the problem for me :upside_down_face: :rofl:

Agreed Trond, I have a similar philosophy, right or wrong as that may be :wink:

I fall into the same “trap” :face_with_diagonal_mouth: (also well written reply, Jennifer, not a ramble at all, there was much I could relate to in your comments).

Ah! Now this is my problem! :thinking: :bulb: :rofl:

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A lot of good and honest points here, none are really wrong. Live your best lives, friends!

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If people are wanting to take the time to offer even a little feedback, then that provides a decent summary JK. Critique can fit within those parameters.

And Dave puts it another way … in a phrase I’m familiar with …

That is true and I can immediately think of a few people that would apply to. I would not allow the way feedback is received determine the spirit with which it continues to be offered. Would people stop giving their children gifts at Christmas just because one child didn’t play with toys they received?

In a number of moderator discussions we have always pushed towards the keep-it-simple approach with fewer, not more, categories and sub-categories. There was a recent (ish) rearrangement of some categories. I do not see a circumstance where we will split Community Recordings into further sub-categories.

Check the synopsis given on the AVOYP sub-category.
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Well put Lisa. This is where the healthy and virtuous circle of mutual support and pay-it-forward thinking can weave through the Community Recordings … if each and every person who shares a recording gives, say, two other people feedback.

The flow of people who are engaged a lot or a little is an ever changing aspect, naturally and rightly so. So long as the prevailing ethos of the Community is upheld and the positive spirit of giving and sharing is maintained, who offers feedback and who offers encouragement (and who does not for whatever reason) is not the primary consideration. It doesn’t matter who scores if the team wins right ?

Quite so.

Thanks for giving me a chuckle in a serious topic Ian! :slight_smile:

Those are some great thoughts on guiding any feedback offered Gordon.

Fair point to which I would add that it can be possible to comment along the lines of (in writing a response to an AVOYP) … ‘check what you’re doing between 1min20 and 2mins, something doesn’t quite sound right, maybe isolate that section, slow it down and improve the chord changes / strumming etc.’

That is an important point. Being self aware is so important. People have commented that hey explicitly ask for feedback when posting. That could be extended to people stating, “I can see and hear that I struggled with the chord changes and fell behind the tempo a few times, is there anything else I missed?”

There’s a win-win and a good result from people sharing recordings.

Stitch, you have been a real trooper of the old forum and this community, the time you give, your generosity and support across all areas is incredible. I would encourage you to make your feedback in the public space as many people on many occasions have said they find value in reading the feedback and critique offered to others.
Such as this …

Dave is referring to Justin’s own description of himself as an absent father. When he first set up a forum allied to his (old) website he interacted much more - the number of members and posts were so much less. He simply does not have time now though knows that it runs according t his guiding principles and the ethos with which he set it up and hoped for it to run continues.

I tend to agree. If an AVOYP elicits, say, twenty replies, the majority are positive and encouraging with just a few containing juicy morsels of perceptive critique and well formed feedback then that is a healthy diet imho.

A really important point to raise Shane. Someone who has literally just burst through the barrier of making 50 one minute changes between E and Am can be the best person to advise a brand new beginner on forming and changing to and from the E and Am chords.

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Great thread. Most of us here want to improve and move towards our potential and find it useful to receive ‘constructive criticism’ I’m not at a level where I would feel comfortable giving advice to someone unless I had experienced what they are struggling with.

One problem that rears it’s head when giving feedback on original pieces is that music, just like any other genre of art, is subjective and where one person sees changes that need to be made another person might think a piece is great, therefore ‘advice’ needs to consider what the writer of the piece is trying to convey.

The great thing about this site is that there are a ton of people who are very experienced and can help us players who are at the early stage of our guitar/musical journey. The information these players have is like gold to someone like me, so please give advice where you can. :slight_smile:

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Rightly or wrongly, I assume that those participating in the community on a regular basis (not just posting AVoYPs) are looking for feedback and those that pop in every 6-8 weeks (or just post AVoYPs) are sharing their progress.

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Then there’s the one’s just trying to boost the hits on their youtube channel. All though those ones have slowed down over the last few months.

I have a habit of being brutally honest (my wife says I have no filter) So it’s easier for me to feel the person out before making any comments. This is also why I don’t comment very often on AVOYP or LL.
When friends ask me for my honest opinion on a delicate matter I alway ask “Do you want me to answer that truthfully or as a friend” Some people don’t want to hear the truth so it’s easier to say nothing than be accussed of being an ***.

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But isn’t it so that people want to hear just that from friends - the truth I mean? :slightly_smiling_face:

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An important topic and a very interesting thread …

No, this absolute beginner-newbie here won’t add her humble 2c on this topic. I don’t even have a clear opinion about all this yet :thinking:

I just would like to appreciate the way, even difficult topics are being discussed in this forum. There are so many good points of view, so much food for thought and so many profound comments, always put in a respectful, constructive and friendly way, serious or spiced with the right amount of humour.

What a great, terrific community! :grinning:

… ups, just used positive superlatives here too, didn’t I? :innocent:
Sorry, not sorry. That was on purpose.
Honestly.
Being a member here for just a few weeks, I’m impressed - again.
You are awesome!
Yes, you are.
Really! :grinning:

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A great topic and I can say that I have been truly grateful for the constructive criticism that I have received on the various videos that I have posted. I am usually my worst critic and can see where I need to improve, but so often someone comes up with something I had not seen that needs looking at. So I am all for constructive criticism on videos that request it and also Learning log videos.

One day soon I will be experienced enough to offer help to others, but not yet still very much a beginner.

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Don’t you change now @stitch. :nerd_face:

In a world of increasing numbers of virtue signalling, politically correct snowflakes looking for a safe room, the planet still desperately needs people like you to cut through the bs. Sometimes it may not be well received, but it’s good medicine. :sunglasses:

Cheers Shane

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I agree too much sweetness and you can get a heartburn! :grinning: I always ask for honest opinion on my performances and I do hear some mistakes while I play here and there, and I most appreciate comments such as @glpguitar aka Luka gave me under my Europa post. I do appreciate words of encouragement from people, but these kind of comments like Luka gave me helps me develop as a player and that’s what it’s all about for me.

I would say JK just say what you think and if it’s a criticism of someone’s shared content I am sure you have good intentions, you are not mean just for the sake of it. I lately stopped commenting just because time is really limited on my end due to ongoing home improvements and indreased job related responsibilities. Once the bits around home improvements are done I’ll start picking up some Avoyp videos to watch again and we can start giving some honest feedback together :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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Carl … the way it is set up, the AVOYP area is definitely geared up for feedback (among other things) whereas the originals area is more about sharing and celebrating creativity with input and feedback upon request. I do see feedback on recording and mixing rather than guitar playing ability in some topics.

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Hi JK! Genuine feedback takes some effort to evaluate the performance. Prob you would have known whats wrong with your plays and sometimes people would help pointing out to you.

Positive feedback has its great side. It motivates you to do better. Because you know you could do it! (Erm, I think I am living proof haha :smile:)

Sometimes a small compliment would make a big difference. It happens to all amazing artists and legends out there. Sometimes you just need the motivation to help you perform better =]

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Thanks for that detailed post @Richard_close2u, guidance from yourself certainly helps.

Oh I’m looking forward to that Adi :rofl: Feedback crew unite!

Hi Vincent, you’re right, I did say it above but it’s a long thread now - I’m not talking about feedback on my vids specifically, moreso the general “feel” I get from feedback across the community. Yes, everyone loves a compliment (me included!). Compliments are great, as long as they are done from an honest position instead of just a polite fib.

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Why are there worms everywhere on the floor? :wink:

A good topic JK and I know this has been touched on before. I do see what you mean with a bit of a trend towards exclusively uber-positive comments and can also recall some of the earlier things said on my first few AVOYPs, especially my seated posture! But they were all presented in a balanced way, kind of following age old management review structure, start with a positive or two → criticism / improvement areas → end with a positive. Have we lost that middle section? Perhaps a bit over time. FWIW I certainly don’t mind taking people’s advice or hearing where I could do things better, as you say it’s a learning website and we all want to improve. I would also hope that I am self critical enough that I wouldn’t post up something that would only be met with “that was absolutely horrendous and you’ve made my ears and eyes bleed”. I do like to try to lean more towards the positive, even in the areas where I’m making suggestions.

I think you’ve got this summarised as well as it can be, good topic to raise :+1:

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The only problem I see with this thread is not one person who could use a good dose of reality about their playing has participated. Everyone who has commented has shown steady improvement in their playing and really doesn’t need much in the way of Constructive Criticism. They can as @CT put it Self-assess their playing and know when something is off.

Justin teaches guitar and the forum is full of beginners taking lesson from Justin who need help and guidance on their journey and Constructive Criticism is part of that journey. We shouldn’t have to feel guilty about giving it.

For those who choose to use excuses for their poor performances and not take good advice the best we can do is just not comment (good or bad) when they post. Encouraging someone who isn’t improving is not helping them. I’m not talking about a new beginner, I’m talking about the one’s who post here regularly month after month making the same mistakes over and over.
Patting them on the back for not bothering to put in the time to get better isn’t helping.

CT always say you need to find your own voice. Well even a baby learns to Talk by imitating others around them. You need to learn how to talk and pronounce words properly before you can sing.

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I also feel sometimes that when posts say I learned this song a couple of hours ago is it really worth my effort watching and providing feedback if the OP never put the effort in learning the song to the best of their ability.

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