Is it possible to have a bar with 2.5 beats?

[nzmetal]

That makes a lot of sense, Keith, thank you! So I’m thinking I could play it on a guitar but a drummer would hate me, right?!

[Majik]

The other thing you can do, if this is a repeated riff and you like the slightly disjointed rhythm, is to keep the bar length at 4/4 and to repeat the sequence offset from the start of the bar, like this (i’ve used different frets to indicate where the pattern repeats):

In this case, I put a half note at the end to complete the bar.

Cheers,

Keith

[nzmetal]

Ah!! So if I did the whole pattern repeated 4 times, that would be 29*4 = 116 (8th notes) then that would equal 14 bars at 4/4 and 1 bar at 2/4? Which would work! Maths!!

[Majik]

@nzmetal

but a drummer would hate me, right?!

That depends on the drummer. Some would take it as a challenge.

Odd time signatures are more common in some styles of music, especially Progressive Rock and Metal. Bands like King Crimson, Rush, and Genesis have quite a few in their catalogue. Notable ones include:

Rush - Freewill (13/4)
King Crimson - Discipline (17/16 hands over a 4/4 bass drum)
Dave Brubeck - Take 5 (5/4)
Allman Brothers - Whipping Post (11/8)

Some of these can be jarring, and deliberately so. Others can be surprisingly musical.

Genesis were,in my opinion, masters of making odd and varying time signatures sound musical and non-obvious, until you try to count them out. Some great examples here include:

Dance on a Volcano
Firth of Fifth
Apocalypse in 9/8

The last of these is, fairly obviously, in 9/8. The first two vary the time signatures quite a lot. (Firth of Fifth, by the way, has probably my favourite guitar solo of all time).

Also, Turn it On Again, which was a top-10 pop chart hit in the 1980s, has a time signature of 13/4.

But another notable song you might want to consider is:

Metallica - Master of Puppets (3 bars of 4/4 and one of 5/8)

Cheers,

Keith

[nzmetal]

@Majik

That depends on the drummer. Some would take it as a challenge.

True! Either that or they’d throw a drum stick at me!

Some great tracks you’ve listed there, some I know and others I need to check out, especially this one below!

@Majik

(Firth of Fifth, by the way, has probably my favourite guitar solo of all time).

I tabbed it out over 15 bars, with the last being 2/4 and that actually works how I had it in my head, so… that’s awesome! Thanks again!!

Although will probably mix up the power chords at the end of each rotation to make it a bit more interesting… just small steps for now though…

[Majik]

@nzmetal

Some great tracks you’ve listed there, some I know and others I need to check out, especially this one below!

@Majik

(Firth of Fifth, by the way, has probably my favourite guitar solo of all time).

Best listened to with headphones, by the way. Also, this may interest you if you like the song:

Genesis, Firth Of Fifth - A Classical Musician’s First Listen and Reaction

Cheers,

Keith

[Libitina]

Absolutely , yes, there’s even a song on the App that has a short measure mid song.
Dont ask which one as I dont recall the name at the moment ok.

[nzmetal]

@Majik

Best listened to with headphones, by the way.

Yeah, that was brilliant! And that solo was immense, those builds and prolonged notes, just great, I can see why it’s a fav

@Majik

Also, this may interest you if you like the song:

Loved her analysis, the idea of the song’s elements painting a landscape, really works. And her insights on the tonal variations of the solo are gold (the guitar being a saxophone, clarinet, bagpipes, etc! ), hadn’t heard it that way but she’s right Thanks for sharing, Keith!

[jkahn]

@Majik

But another notable song you might want to consider is:

Metallica - Master of Puppets (3 bars of 4/4 and one of 5/8)

Jeffs riff has a major MoP vibe so sounds that the 3 bars of 4/4 and one of 5/8 is probably the right time signature?

[nzmetal]

@jkahn

Jeffs riff has a major MoP vibe so sounds that the 3 bars of 4/4 and one of 5/8 is probably the right time signature?

Hmmm good point JK I’ve chucked some drums over it in that configuration to see how it worked. Apologies, I have no idea what I’m doing with drums though

Riff with drums

[jkahn]

Sounds good Jeff! A fill in the odd bar is the way to go

[DavidP]

I’ve been reading along (beyond me to comment), Jeff, and have to say with a little work on the guitar tone (I assume this is GP not you playing) and I would be quite convinced it was a Metallica song (I only know a few songs from the Black album).

[Jeff]

I heard a bit of Vicarious by Tool in it. Sounds cool!

[nzmetal]

Thanks David, I’ve no doubt ripped it off someone subconsciously and I have listened to a ridiculous amount of Metallica in my life, so I’d not be surprised if their DNA showed up all over riffs that spill out of my head But the fact that you’ve actually thought there might be some similarities is huge to me actually, very happy about that! Thank you!
This is all still in it’s infancy though, although maybe I can take it somewhere…

Edit: forgot to say, yes it’s GP doing guitar on the YT recording above

[nzmetal]

Ah! That’s interesting, Jeff! Tool actually sprung to mind to me as well when I was messing around with it, funny! I’m not sure I have a deep enough well of emotions or dark visions to do anything that comes close to Tool , but I have spent a significant amount of time digesting their back catalog too over the years, perhaps some that might filter through?

[Helen0609]

Hey, the pots in your witch’s kitchen are bubbling as I can see…
I recently had a related question as your initial one, good to see, that I’m not the only one…
Btw, sounds really good, even to my non metal ears, like the added drums…

[Richard_close2u]

Jeff.
Congrats on coming up with a killer riff.
If it sounds good it is good.
Analysis and notation is an after-the-music process.
You’ve had some great help and found solutions - of which even more are possible and there is no ‘correct’ notation style for some bars with a weird count.
You could do one bar of 16 / 8 and a bar of 13 / 8 which would work. Strange but possible. One bar of 18 / 8 then a bar of 11 / 8 (which fits the pattern / counting of the riffs two sections. There are more besides.
As soon as I read your topic and the responses I was put in mind of a post from several months back. I had to go trawling through my archives. It is about Silent Lucidity - Queensryche. It follows odd time signatures through the song and riff. Topic here:

Silent Lucidity - Queensryche - a campfire version?

Following from some questions by Levi @JohnnyBeGoode hereabout approaches to playing songs that he likes that do not necessarily have strumming … In which he mentioned that he has been learning Silent Lucidity - the intro before the other instruments come in … I saw it as a challenge to tab out the arpeggiated guitar part and add another track of an acoustic guitar strumming chords to accompany it. Here is what I came up with NOTE - until about 90 minutes ago I had ne…

[nzmetal]

@Helen0609

Hey, the pots in your witch’s kitchen are bubbling as I can see…

They sure are! I’m trying to cook up some riff wizardry but mostly getting burnt scones at the moment

@Helen0609

I recently had a related question as your initial one, good to see, that I’m not the only one…

Glad I’m not alone!

@Helen0609

Btw, sounds really good, even to my non metal ears, like the added drums…

Thank you!

@Richard_close2u

Congrats on coming up with a killer riff.
If it sounds good it is good.

Thanks Richard! Work in progress but enjoying the process

@Richard_close2u

of which even more are possible and there is no ‘correct’ notation style for some bars with a weird count.

Wow! Yeah didn’t realise all these options are valid approaches. I am aware of odd time signatures of course, plenty of the music I listen to certainly embraces that approach, however for some reason I thought there would be one solution per instance, i.e. I didn’t realise it could be up for so much individual interpretation. So am I right to assume the"correct" option for me to choose (from the options that fit) is the one that meets my requirements from a complexity (or lack thereof) perspective and how it best fits with the drum/rhythm I prefer?

Adding drums was an eye opener for me in that it did seem a lot more complex for a drum noob like me on how to come up with something that works when it isn’t 4/4. I assume that’s why so many would go that path as it’s far more straightforward to stick with that timing as opposed to something unusual which would require a higher level of technical capability to pull off? Plus I guess listeners find it more difficult to grab on to those odd timings making the song potentially less approachable as a result (despite being more interesting perhaps)?

Would it be good advice to work on creating riffs over drum tracks in the timing you probably going to use, i.e. not just messing around on the guitar in isolation then trying to adapt it later?

@Richard_close2u

It is about Silent Lucidity - Queensryche. It follows odd time signatures through the song and riff. Topic here:

Thanks for the link, really interesting thread, in fact the thing that surprised me the most about it was this:

@Richard_close2u

NOTE - until about 90 minutes ago I had never heard this song before.

And I note you weren’t alone on that either?! I’m flabbergasted!

[Majik]

@nzmetal

Adding drums was an eye opener for me in that it did seem a lot more complex for a drum noob like me on how to come up with something that works when it isn’t 4/4.

Yes, indeed. Speaking as someone who has, recently, had some drum lessons, just keeping the count in real time seems like a challenge to me.

Many of the drummers who are considered amongst the best in the world come from genres that frequently use odd, and changing, time signatures.

@nzmetal

Plus I guess listeners find it more difficult to grab on to those odd timings making the song potentially less approachable as a result (despite being more interesting perhaps)?

Absolutely and, as I said before, trying to make it sound musical can be tricky. Which is why I originally thought it might have been a mistake.

When it’s done well, I think the music tends to be much more interesting

@nzmetal

So am I right to assume the"correct" option for me to choose (from the options that fit) is the one that meets my requirements from a complexity (or lack thereof) perspective and how it best fits with the drum/rhythm I prefer?

I would say so. At the end of the day, how it’s notated is fairly irrelevant, so do whatever you need to do to make it work.

I was mainly trying to show some options to make it work within the context of proper notation and Guitar Pro because, to your original question, no you shouldn’t really notate 2.5 beats in a bar.

@nzmetal

Would it be good advice to work on creating riffs over drum tracks in the timing you probably going to use, i.e. not just messing around on the guitar in isolation then trying to adapt it later?

In general, yes, especially if you want to make life easier for yourself. As I said, I thought you may have made a mistake for this reason.

But there’s nothing at all wrong with what you came up with: it’s entirely musically valid and sounds great. So if it was an mistake, it was a happy one.

So if you want to make life easier for yourself, stick a 4/4 or 6/8, etc. beat on and use that to build from.

But if you want to be a bit more experimental, and perhaps create some more happy mistakes, then carry on doing what you have been doing.

After all, if it sounds good, it is good.

Cheers,

Keith

[nzmetal]

Thank you again, Keith, your insightful responses are, as always, incredibly helpful!
There’s some excellent guidelines amongst the information you have provided for me to use as a basis for dipping my toes into the riff writing process. Really appreciate it!!