Hi @akkana! As others have said, most human hands seem to naturally have difficulty separating the second and third fingers. That said, it looks as if yours is especially challenging! For me, Justin’s Beginner Finger Stretches have been great for improving mobility and control between those two fingers (as well as increasing my stretch). I’ve been doing them for months, and recently got up to doing them on the first fret. I have more work to do, but this has been a great start. While Justin has many good exercises, as a beginner I’ve chosen to focus on those presented in Grades 1-3 (I’ve only just begun Grade 3) and not jump ahead. I’ve only this week started working on the Finger Gym in Grade 3. There’s no way I could have attempted this if I hadn’t spent time on the Beginner Finger Stretches!
That looks very proper! You’ve got the neck tilted quite a bit more than I keep mine. And I notice the outside of your palm is angled down as a result. My acoustic really tries to sit parallel to the floor, and my natural position of fingers is not able to angle like that with it parallel. Ok, note to self- get that neck up EVEN HIGHER. Thanks for sharing the pics.
Haha, Proper! Wow! 
A couple details: I was standing when I took those photos (I’ve been playing standing a lot more now - happy to discuss with you if you like but generally it’s because I’m short and guitars are big!). Of course standing means I use a strap (the adjustment of which does not work well for me sitting). Finally, I find myself unconsciously changing the position of the neck depending on what I’m doing. I don’t know if that’s considered a bad habit, but it seems natural. Worst case is it’s me searching for what works.
Oh - I also tried muting the low E while playing that shuffle. That. Did. Not. Work. 
Thanks, I appreciate it! Yep I think you’ve spoken to a common theme among beginners- realizing the neck will move around, the thumb will move around too. And learning that it’s OK if it does. The main reason I loved watching Nitsuj was to see what a beginner player could look like, and how awkward it could be. That was a great illustration, as compared to other YTers who always play everything perfectly with zero mistakes. It made me realize some of the struggles I have are probably just newbie problems and maybe not necessarily hand size problems.
For the past few months I had been trying to just play- to just play in whatever way felt comfortable and natural. But I think for the exercises that involve the shuffle, I’m going to try to focus on trying to get the angle of the palm and fingers to get closer to Justin’s positioning (without injuring myself, of course), and working on strength and stretch. I’m re-reading many of the posts in this thread as well, they’ve been helpful.
My elbow is fairly straight with my body and due to my fairly long arms, it mean the neck is at an angle at around 20-30 degrees from my body. As I recall, not sure if Justin or another place, but there it was mentioned to have the upper part of the arm straight with the body. Then the lower part of the arm, kind of decide the angle the neck is out from the body.
Again I do it so I can feel relaxed and at ease, so it feels naturally and there is no tension anywhere. It really works for me and it gives the upper arm and elbow room to move freely. If I should have the guitar aligned with the body, my elbow would be behind my back. That will for sure not work for me.
I do have long arms compared to my body height, so might not be applicable to you, but sure is worth trying these small adjustments. Why not, you quickly will feel if it is comfortable or not.
My arm length is average, or maybe just a tad short, so opposite to you, then. I don’t seem to have any issue with tension in shoulder or elbow or trouble positioning the upper arm. That all feels very relaxed and natural. Finger stretch comes at the expense of strength right now (just exactly like you mentioned earlier) and causes tension.
Maybe all these things will improve over time and with more playing. But apprehension about technique can really hold me back from playing (I’m a perfectionist) which is cruelty of life. But anyway, I digress. Thanks for all your descriptive responses and the photos and suggestions. I’m sure some micro adjustments are what I need. Much appreciated.
Cross legged with small guitar. Think it is called 3/4 size.
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Footstool small guitar
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The gretsch I only use footstool. Too uncomfortable cross legged for me
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Correct or not, it works for me. I can easy sit for one full hour or even 2 with the small guitar.
1 hour with the Gretsch is enough. Still working on it.
It also makes me able to have straight wrist. Maybe slightly bend sometimes up or down, but no strain or tension at all. I can freely move around with the fretting hand.
Hey everyone,
I found this article about this topic: Tips For Small-Handed, Short-Fingered Guitarists - Guitar Music Theory by Desi Serna
Some interesting reading.
Tod
Yep i hear you. When I first started this course, you should’ve seen some of the wrist angles I had to employ. It was clearly incorrect and would probably have lead to injury down the line. A teacher would’ve immediately corrected it, and I have worked to correct it. The C chord was and still is problematic where if I’m not paying attention, the natural inclination of my hand is to drop the wrist. Some riffs on the thickest strings (Enter Sandman) I might not ever be able to do without muting a string…or I can play it with a bend or play if differently, which eveyone strives to to (play their own way). Playing a person’s own way is fine, I get it. And more and more I’m seeing it’s going to be a necessity But I find it alluring to be able to play the same pieces the same way as my idols, I guess.
Of course I understand that the odd bend is necessary. As I’ve stated before, I commonly see others bend while playing power chords and barre chords. I certainly do too at this stage. I also see players that don’t. It looks better and more comfortable and more proper when they don’t, and Justin doesn’t either. I’m just trying to train my playing to not rely on a bend as a crutch. Yeah I’m overthinking, probably yes. That’s my superpower.
And yep, top/bottom… anytime I open my mouth I reveal how I don’t know anything about anything. 
This may be a useful watch
I have been slowly realizing, at least in regard to myself, that the “beginner thing” is the worry, stress, introspection about all of these very new and not easy things we are trying to do.
I went through (and still do go through) stages of feeling that my hands won’t be able to do this, my guitar is wrong, my strings are too tense, my posture is wrong, I don’t have rhythm, I can’t memorize that, my body/mind isn’t made to play guitar.
Well, of course we can’t. We are just starting out and the process involves sorting all these things into ways that work for us. This takes time, effort, directed thought, action and most of all patience.
It has taken me 3.5 years to finally start feeling comfortable with how I hold the guitar, to feel I am really making progress and can figure out ways to play things, even if they aren’t the way I am shown to do it. I feel that I can mostly avoid injury and that I will do even better in the future.
Still, every time I pick up the guitar, I am assessing and adjusting how I sit, hold it and move my fingers. I expect I will change more as I go. I hope that includes a little more speed and the ability to sing…
The important things are to avoid injury, cuz that sucks, and to persevere, if you love and value what you are doing. It will slowly start easing together and outside of the injury thing, there really is no right or wrong, just guidelines.
Yes I definitely identify with what you described. I did and do have some legitimate mechanics issues to pay attention to. I’ve never understood the thought that time and playing would magically correct technique issues…I just don’t think that is the case. I perceive that bad position has to be corrected early on, at least that’s how my piano teacher taught me when I was 6. But maybe I’m wrong and it only requires years of playing to strengthen all the fingers and then suddenly there’s great technique that sneaks up on you.
For me, there is relief when I know I’m not the only one worrying about things, when so many people seem to think these thoughts and experiences are insignificant or something out of nothing. So, thank you for (more than once) reminding me that I’m not alone. I think its pretty obvious every time I post that I don’t know what I’m talking about. So, I’ll just leave it at that and say that my playing experience so far has resulted in having to actively work to correct wrist bend in positions where most other players don’t have an issue, and for me I think it is a combination of strength + reach being weak (which I routinely acknowledge), i.e. lack of experience being coupled with short fingers. Is it impossible to play skillfully with short fingers? No. I am actively working to learn songs (with proper form), and following Justin’s course completely, exactly, and solely. And slowly.
I don’t think it will. You need to actively address the issues as best you can when they become apparent, or before hand if feasible. Your piano teacher wanted to spare you some risk and effort. An in person guitar teacher may do the same, something to consider if you feel stuck. Great technique won’t sneak up on us. We need to actively pursue it as part of our practice.
Don’t sell yourself short! You know and are learning a lot. You are asking great questions and working towards solutions that will work for you. I would argue that more of us and more of the YouTube and professional players out there struggled and struggle with overuse, wrist angle and posture than you think. You are not alone or unique in this. I have had to start wearing a carpal tunnel brace at night as I figure out ways to play with less stress in my wrist.
If I was able to play as much as I wish I could, I would definitely have run afoul of a repetitive use injury and had to slow down or stop. I have no idea how people practice 3-6 hours a day. First, my family, job and other interests wouldn’t allow it, second, my body couldn’t take it, at least not yet. I hope that I can manage to play longer by the time I retire in 10-15 years …otherwise, what will I do with myself?
Gone back over this thread and see that no one would appear to have looked at the Simon Candy lesson I mentioned, as they were too busy taking chunks out of one and other.
So to get this back on track, watch this, you may find it useful. Small hands, big hands its all about technique and placement.
Cheers
Toby The Small Handed Madman.
The most important to me here is the bit about fanning the fingers instead of just spreading them parallel to the fretboard. Also, I think that the emphasis put by Justin on not bending the wrist is sometimes misunderstood and interpreted as having to keep the forearm and the fretting hand in a straight line at all times, and this may cause a bit of confusion and difficulties to beginners.
Bonus encouragement for people with “large” and “fat” hands:
Check out how they change the grip based on what they are playing, it all ties up with the video above nicely.
This is a good point! I have decidedly medium hands and, personal preference, like widely spaced strings and wide nuts. At this point, I don’t enjoy playing a guitar if the nut width is less than 46mm.
I don’t know how people with wider fingertips manage those teensy electric guitars at all!
Sure, I can’t do a thumb over to save my life, but it is a small sacrifice.
Longer fingers…I might like that, though. Mostly, I just wish I still had the flexibility of youth.
I am sorry if in anyway I have contributed to a thread that has lead to negative feelings. I think the subject is difficult. As @Kasper alludes, it is hard to explain that many have different struggles and there are ways to still successfully play guitar, without sounding a little dismissive. Especially if the lens with which it is view is a bit defensive.
Those of us taking time to comment here and elsewhere in the forum over the years are largely of good intention. We just want to encourage and have those with some struggles understand that that is normal and we want you to succeed. We are human, too and can’t always be perfect in regard to how our comments may be interpreted or be perfect in our wording.
I would focus more on Darrell’s @DarrellW elbow, forearm and wrist being dropped low in order for his fingers to reach up to the strings either flexed out or curled and still have a span across multiple frets. Out of sight, Darrell’s thumb will be about halfway down (or up) the back of the neck, somewhere behind fingers 1 & 2 most likely. This is for single note play, it can work for chords also.
Dropping the elbow and wrist can facilitate stretch and reach.
Also, Darrell’s guitar is positioned high, achieved by leg crossing. For good posture leg-crossing might not be the best long-term physical solution so a foot rest and / or a strap can achieve the same. This means the hand is not pointing down, reaching around and coming back up on itself to such a great degree. His guitar neck is angled upwards. This helps too.
Mmh. Bent how? Bending your wrist too much can cause tension and strain which will cause pain and inhibit good playing.
Your thumb should be approximately vertical. Not truly parallel with the frets. More slightly inclined away from vertical, pointing a little away from your body. And it won’t be static but moving. It is perfectly good to lower it down the neck sometimes - for reaching to single notes on the thicker strings with fingers 3 and 4 for instance. It is perfectly fine to raise it up, and over, for thumb muting and thumb-over bass notes perhaps.
The issue that I think arises from laying it perpendicular to the frets, parallel with the neck and pointing away from you is that it pulls away from being behind, from ‘opposing’ your fingers, and means it is not really supporting the hands and fingers in their role of fretting the notes / chords.If your thumb gets fixed there as a default you may struggle to train it out of the habit.
Like this:
This photo shows Kim’s @kimlodrodawa thumb pointing towards the headstock. The opposing pressure to fingers is from the fleshy base of the thumb.
I understand the ‘finding your own way approach’ because we are all anatomically different. I also, respectfully, suggest that this grip is not optimal for chord changes and other techniques.
Much better is to rotate the thumb clockwise as we see it, to be closer to vertical, and lower the wrist / lower the elbow. This will take most of the flesh of the palm down and out of contact with the neck. That frees up space for fingers to be in control of the chord grips and chord changes. Gripping with the base of the thumb brings the palm into too much contact with the back and underside of the neck and restricts free finger movement.
Akkana’s @akkana thumb is similar and restricting finger movement by squashing the palm into the neck more than is optimal.
Those two fingers on almost everybody’s hands are the ones that separate least. You are not alone.
Look at Judi’s @judi hand and wrist …
A low elbow, a low wrist, an angled guitar neck. I can’t see the thumb but I can tell that is is not pointing at the headstock because the flesh of the palm is not in contact with the back or underside of the neck.
Kim’s @kimlodrodawa forearm and wrist and back of hand are more or less in a straight line here.
All of the chord work on the strings must be happening only by bending the fingers significantly from their first knuckle joint. It looks difficult in that chair and seated position to lower the elbow further which I would suggest is necessary. Raising the angle of the guitar neck up will help.
This is better.
That is great! 
More than useful. Every moment of it. Worth linking again.
It shows exactly how to approach and think about thumb placement. Notice that Justin generally has his thumb somewhere between vertical and about one quarter anti-clockwise away from vertical most of the time. The only time his thumb rotates more and points slightly towards the headstock is [a] when he is using it as a pivot / anchor for fast movement between small jazzy-chord shapes with some fret span betwen them and [b] when he does the Hendrix hammer-on style play. When he goes to thumb over his palm does come in to contact with the neck.
@Richard_close2u I’ll try to keep the thumb in the advised position, but it results in buzzes and mutes sometimes, is the only thing I can say.
Honestly, there just gets to be too much fatigue in trying to explain what I find difficult, which is why I hadn’t yet started a thread like this or even try to talk to anyone about it very much. Now that it’s here, I’ll use it to ask specific questions. Bad form, beginner-ness, legitimate short fingers, I don’t know, but at the end of the day, regardless of how well or terribly I describe my experience, I’m the only one who knows what it is like to have my hands. So, I just do what I can do, and stop practicing when my hand gets too tense and tired.
Hi Stacy, just a thought… have you considered taking a couple of lessons with one of the JG approved teachers. They maybe able to help address your concerns and frustrations.
Yes I have considered it.