Still more thoughts on AI

It’s quite remarkable that musicians are so inherently conservative, yet change has been a constant factor in music. What, we’re conservative? Yes, for example, most guitars use designs of the 1950s, complete with chrome (!), exposed screw heads and colours from the General Motors paint shop. Change is constant? Yes, just listen to the first few dozen podcasts in https://500songs.com/.

Consequently, at least since the end of WWII, there has been an endless petition of complains about what the young kids of today are listening to, how no one appreciates serious music any more, how musicians are being hard done by, how technology is taking the soul out of music, how it used to be real but now it is all just copies, blah, blah, bloody blah.

Today is no different.

Before you object that today is different because of the scale or pace of change, because according to Deezer more than a third of all music being uploaded today is AI generated, just recall how powerless black musicians felt in the 1950s when all of their popular releases were immediately copied by white musicians and then shamelessly released to the white market, at least an order of magnitude larger, with not a single cent of copyright paid. Today is not so different. Not great, but not different.

Musicians have always been financially exploited, any band will confirm this. You live in a squat while your manager drives around in a Rolls-Royce, not the other way around. Mary Spender, by no means a minor Youtuber musician, lost 12,000 GBP on her recent small tour of the UK. When Pink Floyd sacked Richard Wright and then had to hire him back as a jobbing musician, he was the only one who made money. Music is an industry in which everyone takes as much as they can get and the actual music is just the raw material that gets fed in at one end of the machinery.

If AI directs all the money people are paying for music into the pockets of the fat cats/tech bros (use whatever term suits your generation), then what’s new? Nothing.

What? You object, saying look at Taylor Swift and her billions, look at the Rolling Stones in their country mansions? Fine, just remember that there is a single factory in Indonesia that churns out over a million guitars each year. That’s a lot of new musicians every year, one factory.

So maybe now you will say but not everyone wants to be Taylor Swift, and you are right. That’s actually one of the points I want to make: if you just love playing music, no one is stopping you, not AI, not a music public with different tastes, not a greedy industry, no one. You’re just as free to do what you want to do as a musician in the 1950s or the reign of Henry VIII, or a time when the best we could do was hit a stick against a hollow log. Only the neighbours object.

OK, but forget the money, what about creativity? That’s never been at threat the way it is today, surely? Well, before we get into a tizzy about this, let’s just reflect that some of our most creative and original actual musicians and artists have been fascinated by algorithmic approaches to their media for literally decades. Check out the program for the 1968 exhibition Cybernetics Serendipity - it covered both music and art. So, there is a long history of how workers in several creative media have striven to remove the human from the artistic decision-making process. Why? Because creativity is a process of discovery, of finding out what happens, of trying to dispense with what you’ve done before and find a new way. There’s a popular notion of creativity as a process of ‘inspiration’, as if it channels something from the supernatural or spiritual world, but if you actually listen to what creative people actually say when describing how they work, I think you will see that there is more to it than that. It hinges on discovery. It is curiosity-driven. It is an urge that runs deeper than any tool. Creative people simply create. That’s how the adjective gets applied. Take away their paints, and they will scratch patterns in rock. Take away their guitars, and they will drum on the table. Give them a new tool and they will play with it. And what is AI music if not a new tool?

Right, but not everyone wants to remove all trace of human touch from art, you might say. Of course, and that just shows how things have evolved since the late 1960s; nowadays generated art can be indistinguishable from the fruits of our labour, that’s what we seem to be aiming for, today. And we are almost there. Or if not today, then give it another year. In that sense, it’s actually getting better, fast.

So, finally, we get to the point of asking: what on earth is at the root of the panic about AI music?

It can’t be the new financial model - it’s hardly any worse than the previous ones.
It can’t be the death of music - that’s been greatly exaggerated.
It can’t be the loss of creativity - that will remain as long as humans exist, and perhaps even longer.

So what is it?

Fear of change.

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Nope, disagree entirely. These days very few people fear change, which is why everything changes so fast with very little complaint from society. In case you hadn’t noticed, AI is one of the few exceptions to that, because people are genuinely worried about where it is taking us.

I have to admit that I really don’t want to sit here and write an essay responding to your entire post, so I’ll just give my view of the main points you made at the end.

Not true. While it’s true creatives have been heavily exploited by greedy corporations since forever, it’s also true that in recent times those same creatives have been empowered by various means. There are accessible options now for creatives to get their work out there, and even make some kind of living from it, without ever going near a crappy contract.

As AI gets better and better it means anyone and everyone can produce “content”, burying the work of human creatives and making AI slop so cheap that they can’t make any kind of living from their real work. Perhaps you don’t know any professional creatives and therefore don’t care, but I do.

I don’t think it has, to be honest. There are still plenty of great artists out there for the moment, true. However, the stuff you hear most often on people’s phones, radios or whatever is the generic garbage created electronically based on algorithms that the music companies know produce catchy tunes for the mindless masses. That’s been going on for years already, long before AI came along. Do you think it’s likely to get better or worse? Now you don’t need anyone… no song writers, no musicians, no singers, no engineers. Just tell AI what you’re after, and it’ll churn it out in seconds.

So again, it’s a situation in which anyone and everyone can churn out “music”, drowning out true creatives and removing any chance they have of earning an income from their work.

Creativity only means something if people actually appreciate it. Most musicians aren’t writing songs they only ever play for themselves. Most artists aren’t painting pictures to hang on their own walls. Creativity needs an audience, otherwise what’s the point? But if the average consumer has the option of paying next to nothing for something generated by AI, or ten times the amount for something created entirely by a human, which are they more likely to go for? Hint: it’ll be the cheaper one.

Even if you take money out of the equation, why would someone spend years of their life trying to master a very difficult skill such as an instrument or form of art, when they know anything they produce is going to be lost in the masses of AI generated slop wherever they try to perform/display it? Why go through all that when someone with zero talent can produce a similar thing with no effort at all?

The fact is that most of the people who don’t “get it” when it comes to AI are not currently in a position where it directly affects them. They don’t seem to be able to think outside the current box, and see how they would feel if it were their job or passion which was at stake.

I mean, what do you do for a living Mark? How do you pay your bills? Or doesn’t it bother you because you’re retired? How would you have felt if you went to work one day, a job you’d had to study years to do, and found out that pretty soon you would be obsolete, replaced by robots and/or AI? Do you think it’s a good thing that one day little communities like this one may be the only place creatives can share their work and feel a little appreciation?

I’ve written more than intended already, and I haven’t even started on how the ease of AI “creation” is going to make people even lazier and even less likely to take up a creative hobby because… why bother? All those years of effort when your mate… or you yourself… can do the same thing in seconds with AI.

So yeah, human creativity is absolutely going to be negatively impacted by AI, both in the short and the long term.

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Ross, there is an ad hominem flavour to your response that discourages any kind of reply, but it is ironic that you ask what I do, as if that has some bearing on things. The answer is music, writing and painting, since the 1970s. My writing business was killed stone dead by ChatGPT. I took it on the chin. So please do not take the approach of trying to discredit me personally in order to make a point.

For me, AI music is nothing more than an algorithm that had a look at a million songs and distilled something not even worth listening too.
It has to be said though, that people can be fooled.

But for what it’s worth, i don’t like a robot making the music that i love. (Well, except for Kraftwerk. :slight_smile: )
Robots are usefull for many things, but we have to put some restraints on them.
It’s not what the “tech bros” want.
Give this a few years and people won’t be able to tell what’s real or not anymore.
That is, for me, a reason for great concern.
Oh, and let’s not forget the stupendous amount of power that’s needed to keep these things operational. And for what? You can run a small country on that amount of power.
Enviroment anybody? Because nobody seems to be talking about that.
You"ll need a seperate nuclear facility in the future, just to power one datacenter.
All because the robot is hording all the power it can get.
E-waste perhaps? Or did you think that the hardware needed runs for ages? Nope, don’t think so.
As i a said before, we need to put some serious restraints on this, before it gets (even) more out of hand.

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That’s a well-reasoned, insightful post, Mark. I enjoyed reading it and largely agree.
Human ‘creativity’ in arts, along with all other areas, is flourishing as never before and will continue to do so. (Even I’m dabbling in it, for goodness sake :rofl:)
Earning a living from pursuing your ‘passion’ will continue to be a Sisyphean task.
Like its predecessor, the internet, (which used to be one of our big worries), AI is simply a tool, which will have positive and negative consequences.
Please bear in mind that if/when AI becomes mainstream, aspects of it are likely to be integrated with this website. Justin has a track history of using modern technology effectively to promote learning and decency.
It would be a pity if entrenched ‘ideological’ positions were to disrupt this oasis of positive vibes in our strange world.
Have a lovely musical weekend everybody :grinning_face_with_big_eyes:

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The more I learn and think about AI, the more concerned I become about it.

So far all we have just seen is Narrow AI - AI that has the ability to accomplish very specific tasks - making music, summarising text, recommending a book etc.

Once we have Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) providing general human level reasoning, combined with robotics, then there is no job which is no longer not at risk. Driving is one of the most common professions in the world. Waymo now operates over 600 vehicles across more than 120 square miles of LA … It has begun, every profession will be affected. Universal Basic Income and lots of free time - sounds great - or is it?

Once we have Artificial Super Intelligence (ASI) then the consequences are by definition unimaginable. Once humans are no longer the smartest thing on the planet then all bets are off.

In the meantime I’ll enjoy playing the guitar.

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we can apply this song to more situations :grinning_face_with_big_eyes:
Let’s speak with great music :smiling_face:
Greetings

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What a fantastic horn intro @roger_holland :grinning_face_with_big_eyes:
I presume Vulkaan is Dutch for volcano rather than Vulcan (Spock’s planet)? :thinking:

Take it from me… it is! :rofl:
More time for positive community work, looking after friends & family, creativity etc.
The problem is introducing UBI by persuading/making the super-rich individuals/companies to distribute their wealth (so that people can buy their goods! :open_mouth:)
The world has more than enough resources to sustain our population. It’s a problem of will-power.
Having said that, I won’t hold my breath, as we can’t even stop actively killing ourselves when we disagree…

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Let’s keep it serious here and not talk about ‘Spock’ :smirking_face:

:joy:

Yes ,it is about dancing on an active volcano that can erupt at any moment :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:, I think the most used term I have in my life and uttered in recent years more and more (so of course also long for this AI thingisch)

Greetings and please keep it nice all :butterfly: :sun:

I think for some people it would be great, for many, though, perhaps not. I think many (most?) people derive a lot of benefits from work beyond the salary: pride, self-esteem, feeling of community, physical exercise, mental stimulation, a reason to get out of bed in the morning, meaning to life, etc. I think many people might have a problem adapting to a life without work.

Now, me, I’m with you: I’m really enjoying my retirement, which, with a decent pension, is like UBI for old folks :slight_smile:

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You’re absolutely right, and all the studies show that with UBI the vast majority of people still work and derive all those same benefits (including salary): pride, self-esteem, feeling of community, physical exercise, mental stimulation, a reason to get out of bed in the morning, meaning to life, etc.
The big difference is that they spend their time doing something that they feel is important/meaningful and enjoyable. It not only makes them happier, but also more productive, and their communities benefit. There are billions of people currently working, wishing they could be doing something else, but can’t afford to. You and I are fortunate to be in that tiny group able to afford how to choose how we spend our time.
Why would I think others could not cope with/enjoy that freedom? :thinking:

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There’s some truth to that but, I think, it’s because we have been conditioned to believe our self-worth and sole (or, at least, overwhelming) contribution to society is through employment.

The problem is, in most Western countries, there has never been a time where we have had full employment. Yes, we have had skills shortages due to training gaps but, even if that was solved (which it cannot easily), there’s still more people than there are jobs.

And that doesn’t even consider the jobs that no-one wants to do, or which aren’t sustainable (like picking fruit) or the considerable percentage of jobs which are just “busy work” and don’t actually need to exist.

In the UK, for example, there has never been a time in the last 50 years where we’ve not had 1 million more employable people than there are jobs. And, it’s usually at least 2 or 3 million.

Yet we, as a society, tend to deride these people as “lazy” or “scroungers”. This attitude, IMO, is the biggest barrier to UBI adoption. And guess who promotes this way of thinking…

If automation and AI does start to erode jobs (or, just as important, de-skills and commodifies jobs to the point they become as unsustainable as seasonal fruit picking) then something like UBI will become a necessity for society.

It’s worth looking at the various UBI pilots and schemes that have happened and which are, still, happening around the world. Many of these have been overwhelmingly positive with reports of happier, more healthy people who, once they had acclimatised, tend to use their spare time for positive things (improving their education, volunteering, art, etc.).

In many of the cases I have seen, these schemes have been terminated with the reason given being it’s “too expensive” or decrying why people should have “something for nothing”, which is appealing to people selfishness and tribalism, and to the ingrained attitude I described before, whilst ignoring the necessity to change how societies and economies work.

And I do worry that there doesn’t seem to be much focus on the economic modelling of UBI, which is a key aspect that needs to be addressed.

Cheers,

Keith

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My concern is that the studies have not modelled the way things could pan out here. Studies generally provide a small UBI with the opportunity to engage with paid work. If there is no paid work available then it becomes a very different outlook imo. Choice is the most valuable thing on the planet (it’s the main thing money buys - choice of where to live, what to eat, what to do with your time etc). The studies tend to be around the 3 year mark - this would be a lifetime.

I think UBI does need to have serious consideration - AGI will have a dramatic effect on all employement in the future but I have to admit I am pessimistic of a utopian outcome.

It’s a good point, but we do have some precedents here: for example, decades ago it was common for only one of a married couple to be in full-time employment; there are those who have taken early retirement; and those who were born to wealthy families who don’t need to work for a living.

But I do agree this should be studied (and modelled) better.

Cheers,

Keith

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Good points. I need to bone up on UBI, I’m not so well-informed as you. (I will ask chatGPT to give me a rundown :slight_smile: )

This is great, but in the case where AI is eliminating jobs, how are people continuing to work?

Kudos on the rhetorical chops! :slight_smile:

I suppose many people would adapt, but I also feel like many would not be able to. I believe it’s an issue that any future society will have to find a solution to.

None of these is a good match for somebody who is involuntarily removed from their job, imo.

Of course, when technology is making many jobs obsolete, having a UBI is much better than not having one!

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Now I was going to sound too negative.
I think that everyone of you has good points.
I’ll go practicing a bit of guitar :slight_smile:

Well, we have a bit of an example there too: during the pandemic, many people were furloughed which has some similarities with UBI.

Related to this, almost everyone went through a major change in their lives from working practices to how we shopped and socialised, etc.

Of course, a lot of people had major mental health issues coming out of this, but these appear to mostly have been caused by the islolation, the concerns about catching the virus, about the future, etc.

When it came to remote working, which was forced on many to whom it could apply (primarily people in office jobs), the response amongst the employed was overwhelmingly in favour to the point that, post pandemic, employers and landlords have struggled to get people to come back into their offices. A large number of businesses still allow remote working in one form or another, with some actively encouraging it (after all, it saves on office space).

That was a huge change in working practice and it shows that most people, when they see the benefit in something like this, will embrace it.

Back to the furloughed, surveys have showed that people in this position had much better mental health than people who had lost their jobs (including those before the pandemic). Not as good as those who weren’t furloughed, mind, but this was mainly associated with concerns for the future and income security. Also, the furloughed had to isolate/distance like the rest of us, so it’s not like they could start volunteering for their local charity shop, or go and join an art class. Although many did purchase musical instruments and use the time to learn them.

If you took those concerns for income security and for their future away, I suspect their mental health would have been much better.

But the reality is, you are correct: we don’t know for sure how people will react to being in a society where employment is entirely optional. And I suspect we won’t until schemes have been run for much longer and with a wider scope.

I look at this from my own perspective: I was made redundant in early 2003 when the company I worked for went into receivership and no-one else was hiring. When it happened, I was completely gutted and my mental health was through the floor. My biggest concern was for my financial situation, of course. It turned out to be one of the best things that happened to me!

Out of necessity, I started contracting and building my own customers and I have, largely, been doing that ever since. And it has provided me so much more than I could get from being someone else’s employee (and I don’t mean financially).

I still have to worry about my financial situation, of course. But I have much more flexibility to do the things I want, whether that is in work or taking time off.

I should point out that I was VERY lucky that I could do this; my skills and experience were still in demand and I have a lot of flexibility in the industry I operate in.

Not everyone is in that position.

I have flirted with employment during this time. Particularly, when I went to Singapore in 2022 I had to become an employee of a local company as a condition of getting the employment pass. I absolutely hated it and it had a major negative impact on my mental health. I should point out I had a good boss and I’m still friends with him and his wife. But it was becoming so stressful for me that I eventually left his company and went back to doing my own thing.

If I won the lottery tomorrow and didn’t need to work, I probably still work or do something like it because I enjoy what I do. But I wouldn’t do it full time, and I might end up doing something much more altruistic. In that situation “work” doesn’t need to be paid work.

Honestly, I do believe that, if you can take the stress of finances away from people, they will adapt quite quickly.

The question is: how do you do that?

Especially in a society where the employer/employee social contract is largely based on this fear of financial ruin.

Well, exactly!

Cheers,

Keith

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The problem with UBI is who sets what each person receives. There is already talk of a living wage in Canada and yesterday it was set at $26.50 an hour to live in Calgary. That’s just enough to feed, house yourself and pay basic bills like utilities. Do you honestly think governments and the rich are will to pay people 26.50 an hour to do nothing?

AI will replace the well educated and high paid jobs first. It’s already happening with Doctors without AI. Devices like fitbit are becoming more accurate and soon will be diagnosing a persons health and Doctors are using AI to help with diagnosing their patients more and more. Actually training their replacments.
No robot needed.

The thing AI does best is learn and we’re happy to teach it to replace us.

The problem with society as it stands today: what happens when if we start moving towards mass unemployment.

What happens if/when we have 20% unemployed? 50%?

UBI has a lot of potential problems and unanswered questions, but so does the status quo.

Cheers,

Keith

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