Good question. You don’t mix sharps and flats so in theory the #5 would be a b6 because the 3rd in a minor chord is flattened. So in theory to write the chord out it would be R b3 b6 but in reality it could be a #5 making a augmented minor chord.
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In my opinion it will become a different chord altogether, not an “augmented minor” or something like that. For example:
Gm triad: G Bb D
With the 5th sharpened: G Bb Eb (enharmonic equivalent of D#). This is an Eb major triad.
Check out the respective shapes on strings 1-3, it will become more obvious.
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Hmm. Not sure I entirely agree with this @Jozsef.
Based on the notes, in a vacuum, you could see your example as Eb major triad. You could equally call it a Cm7 ( rootless), and several others besides.
In reality, it all depends on the function of the notes, and by extension, the chord, in the overall melody and harmony.
It could very well be functioning as a Gm5+ rather an Eb Major.
Cheers, Shane
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I have to agree with Shane, every chord can have multiple names depending on how and where it is used.
But by definition a triad is made up of stacked maj/min 3rds, so an augmented 5th wouldn’t follow this recipe and this question is in the triad chord section so the renaming of the chord to a Major triad fits the category of triads. On the other hand not all chords fall in the category of triads which brings us back to where we started.
I quess that’s way it’s called theory and not written in stone.
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Hi Zach.
That is not accurate …
Using the C major scale for ease.
Three major, three minor and one diminished triad all fully derived from the notes of the C major scale.
The only triad that this does not work with is the augmented triad.
Augmented triad = 1, 3, #5
The augmented has a major 3rd. Using the three major triads above would give:
C+ = C, E, G#
F+ = F, A, C#
G+ = G, B, D#
Clearly, those #5ths do not belong in the C major scale. None of these augmented triads are diatonic to the key of C.
My advice would be not to get too hung up on augmented triads. They are rarely used.
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That is exactly what we do.
See my diagram in the post immediately prior to this one.
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Strictly speaking, no. The definition of an augmented triad is that it contains two major third intervals. Your triad does not.
Augmented triad = 1, 3, #5
1 → 3 is a major third
3 → #5 is a major third
Your ‘triad’ would be
unknown = 1, b3, #5
As @stitch correctly writes, that is awkward and contravenes the naming conventions so you would have to alter one or other so you do not have flat and sharp in the same triad formula.
unknown - 1, b3, b6
or
unknown = 1, #2, #6
The 1, b3, b6 looks a better option as it contains a 3rd.
Making a specific using a given root note.
C unknown = C (the 1), Eb (the b3), Ab (the b6)
These three notes match exactly those within Ab major triad.
Ab triad = Ab, C, Eb
The C unknown is actually a first inversion Ab major.
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I have had this in my mind since posting and wanting to bring in two short examples of augmented chords (triads) in action.
Mamma Mia (Intro) by ABBA.
This uses the augmented of the tonic chord, simply moving from major tonic to augmented tonic and back again.
Just Like Starting Over (Intro) by John Lennon
This also uses the augmented of the tonic chord as a stepping stone to the relative minor vi chord and back to the tonic again. The movement on the high E string is a great example of voice leading.
There are other ways in which an augmented could be used would be used but I shall refrain from going too deeply down that hole. I just wanted to bring a little light rather than dismiss them altogether.
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Richard @Richard_close2u
As you say the first is the intro to Mama Mia, with quick changes between D and Daug, not too difficult if you use your little finger which I mentioned recently in D Shape Explorer.
Michael
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13 posts were split to a new topic: Is it possible for Justin to add more visuals / diagrams embedded in the video lessons (prompted by PMT theory course triads lesson)?
In the example below Justin says to use the E major scale (to find the chord name) if we see the notes E, G and Bb, which I don’t understand as he says to use the lowest note. Isn’t that G? Why E?
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Hello Stuart,
Think of them as ordered letters, with, in this example, E as the bass or the root. ie the lowest note.
Then derive the chord type from the E Major scale.
In this case, the next 2 notes are both flat, so its diminished.
Everything relates back to the Major scale.
Remember, these lessons are introducing the topic, so the examples are ‘ordered’ so you can use the first note as the root, or bass note, then work it out from there.
In reality, you could choose to make any of these notes the root, and derive all sorts of chords; but thst’s more advanced. You first you need to learn and internalise how the ‘standard’ forms are built.
This is what Justin is presenting here.
Cheers, Shane
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Shane thanks, but if using ordered letters Bb is lowest note! I don’t understand why Justin says that E is the lowest when it is in the middle if ordered - Bb-E-G.
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Consider the octave it is in. It is unfortunate that we talk about notes, but don’t always speak of the octave the note is in.
Think of pitch when someone says “lowest” note.
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Hey Stuart,
Because Justin is telling you to see it as the root note.
Thats it. Its part of the lesson structure. Nothing more.
And its because these lessons are introductory lessons to show the basics of how triads are built.
So, in these examples, the notes are ordered on purpose by Justin, so we, the students, can start to see and internalise how it all works. In reality, they can be ordered in many ways.
In future lessons, Justin will ‘mix up’ these notes, and you’ll have assign a root note yourself, and work out the triad from there.
But first, it really needs to be ordered like this to teach it effectively.
To illustrate, for future lessons, you could reorder the E G Bb example above to
G Bb E
And here, I assign the G as the root note
So then I’d be thinking about the G Major scale, and how the 2 other notes, E and Bb ’ fit’ in this framework.
G Major Scale
G A B C D E F#
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
So G would be the 1
Bb would be the b3, and
E would be the 6
Note there is no 5, ( But thats fine. We dont necessarily need it)
So we have G Bb E
which is, from above, 1b36
So here its a Gm6.
There are numerous other combinations and naming conventions for just these 3 notes. Its all about the root note, and the context.
Hope that doesnt confuse. Its just an illustration that notes arent ‘locked’ into one place or one function. Its all about function and context.
And the context of your original query is about the
‘standard’ or basic forms which you have to learn before going further.
Cheers, Shane
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To add to what Shane said: think of these triads as spelling drills, or the drills you encounter when you learn a language. For example, if you see G B D, B D G, D B G or any other combination of these 3 pitches (including accidentals), you should automatically think in terms of a G major, minor, etc. triad.
Of course, it is possible to name a B D G triad (in ascending order of pitch) as some sort of a B chord, but that is just a bit too cumbersome: D would be a b3 and G would be a b6 in relation to B. It’s much simpler to rearrange them into the familiar G B D triad and then you’re good to go. If you want to add clarity or emphasize the order of pitches, you can call “B D G”, for example, the first inversion of a G major triad which means that the major 3rd is the bass note of the chord.
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I am unclear how you think G might be the lowest note.
Justin has deliberately listed the three notes in order of ascending pitch (sound). E comes first in the list so it is the lowest pitch. And because he has also stated that he is keeping things very simple at this stage, the lowest pitch note will always be taken as the root note.
Once you have the root note you then use the corresponding major scale and look for any exact matches and any deviations from it.
Root note = E
E major scale:
E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#
Triad notes:
example A]
E, G, B
Two notes match (E and B) whereas the G is a semitone lower than the G# of the E major scale so it is a b3. This is E minor with formula 1, b3, 5.
example B]
E, G, Bb
Only the root note matches. Both G and Bb are a semitone lower than the corresponding notes in the E major scale. This has formula 1, b3, b5 and is E diminished.
You are confusing strict and unchanging alphabetical order with musical order based on pitch.
Remember the Note Circle? All 12 notes (7 natural and five sharps / flats) placed around a circle. There is no letter that is at a fixed starting position. Each and every one of those letters (note names) can be placed in position #1. And position #1 will be considered the root note (the lowest in pitch for chord formula working).
How would I know that he is talking about pitch? The text in the workbook notes “We start by comparing the notes to the Major Scale of the lowest note.” I took this to be G, although as Shane noted, if these are ordered it could be, Bb.
It would appear so and yes I know the Note Circle. But isn’t G lower (further round) than E?
This may come across as abrupt or rude and I don’t want it to … I want it to be helpful, as ever.
This whole practical music theory is about music.
Lower or higher when applied to notes (which are assigned an alphabetic name) will always refer to pitch.
Occasionally the words lower / higher may apply, say, to strings. The 5th string is lower than the 4th string. That again relates to pitch.
The Note Circle is not a clock face where 12 must be at the upper most position.
It can rotate clockwise and / or anticlockwise. That means any note can be uppermost. That means any note can be seen as ‘first position’. From there, if reading clockwise, all subsequent notes come after / are further round. This is also seen as ascending in pitch from the root where the root occupies position 1.
OK with me. You get thick skinned at my age!
Sounds like a plan, and yes you are helpful.
Ok, but note that before I started this journey I knew absolutely nothing about music theory. A lot of it, as you can see, still makes no sense to me. Thanks for the clarification re pitch.
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