All good stuff although there’s a lot of bingo-lingo in this thread; some at least I know in name but do not understand sufficiently to have the ‘complete picture’ joined up in my synapses.
All I have gleaned are pov’s that seem, to me at least, to be two sides of the same coin … 
I have referred myself to that bloke who usually talks in language I understand … @Richard_close2u
Keep it fun … 
Its’ not just about “the major scale starting on a different note”. It’s about that different note of the major scale acting as the tonic.
This is how I see it. It’s quite straightforward.
I’ll do it in C.
So I build my C scale CDEFGAB. I now build my chords: C Dm Em F G Am Bdim. This is my Cmajor “construct” for want of a better term.
This construct isn’t anything until I choose one of the notes as the tonic note. I am free to use any of the notes as my tonic. If C is my tonic then I’m in the key of C major. If A is my tonic I’m in the key of A minor. Notice that the key signatures are the same for both. The key signature is informing me that I am using the C major construct.
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Example 1. C acting as the tonic. (very, very, very common)
Ok so I want to build a C major song. Easy enough. My progression will use the C, F and G chords. A I-IV-V progression. Sounds familiar! My playing will emphasise the C chord. My bass player will drone on the C note just to make it absolutely clear that C is the tonic. Now I improvise with the C major scale. I’ll go on a musical journey from and to C.
Example 2. D acting as the tonic.
I want to write a dorian song and improvise in D dorian. Easy enough. I’ll choose the Dminor chord and the G major chord as my progression. A ii-V progression. Just to make it clear that D is my tonic I’ll have my bass player drone on the D note. Now I improvise using D dorian.
Example 3. E acting as the tonic
I want to write a Phrygian piece and improvise in E Phyrgian. Easy enough. I’ll choose the Em and the F major chords as my progression. Why, because this seems to be the go to progression for phrygian. Again, I will try to emphasise that Em chord and my bass player will drone on the E note. Lots of E. Now I improvise using the E phyrgian scale.
Example 4. A as the tonic.
Ok, that’s just an A minor progression so perhaps the chords Am, Dm and Em. and so on.
That’s modes in a nutshell. It’s really that simple.
In this case the of D dorian I am using the notes DEFGABC When I use the D as the root note the intervals will become 1, 2, b3(therefore a minor mode), 4, 5, 6, b7. DEFGABC the D dorian scale. This occurs as a result of choosing D as the tonic note of my C major construct. It’s a by product of this decision. Looking at it only as a modification of the D scale is not the only way to look at it. In all my examples I’m not interested in D major. D major is not in the construct. If anything it might be more helpful to look at it as a variation of D minor or maybe look at it as a minor pentatonic with 2 added notes. All viewpoints are useful.
At the end of the day I just want to be able to find a palette of notes that I can use.
There is much goodness in what you have described.
What you call the ‘C major construct’ conventional terms would call it as C being the parent major scale.
Your mention of the modal root note being played as a drone is an important one.
In my modes topic, I expand on the differences between building modal chord progressions as opposed to the common-and-garden everyday major or minor chord progressions we hear all the time. Starting from this post
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I undrestood that, thanks Matt
Exactly as i see it too @Matt125, hearing the different modes and moods using the same notes is the best way to understand and hear modes as you comparing apples with apples just in a different order. If you cant do that then you need to practice it more until you can.
I have been following this thread (more out of interest really) but have found it so far above my head that it’s well in the clouds. There are terms use (mode and tonic being two) that I don’t understand.
The tonic is just another word for the root note. Modes are just playing the same seven notes in a different order which changes the mood of the music. I’m sure you can hear the difference between major and minor, well thats 2 of modes.
Tonic is the tonal center, root or home. When listening to music your ear will begin to find a beginning and end to verses, choruses and bridges.
A mode is a sound or feel you get from the music. Not a mood. Think of Rock guitarist who have a distinct sound like Carlos Santana. If you hear 5 solos over the some chord progression you will always get a Latino feel when you hear Santana play. This is how modes work.
Go to Youtube and find some videos of Santana jamming with other musicians like Clapton and you will hear the difference in the sound.
Each mode will give you a distinct sound when played properly.
My understanding of modes is still very limited, so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt.
As I understand them, modes in practice are not just the notes of x major scale “starting on a different note”. Sure, taking the notes of x major scale “starting on a different note” (i.e. changing the root note or tonic) can be a handy way to visualize how modes in series can be derived from x major scale, but that’s not the same as actually using those modes or playing in a modal way. You very rarely hear solos which consist of each note of a given scale played in order, whether ascending or descending.
Like, take a song in C major with a diatonic chord progression. First you decide to choose the notes of your solo from “the” C major scale, i.e. treating C as the root note. Then you choose the notes of your solo from the C major scale “starting on a different note”. Will there be any audible change in the second solo? I don’t think so. You’re still using the same set of notes.
To me, the “modes in parallel” approach, i.e. keeping the tonic and changing the major scale degrees that are used seems much more practical as it takes harmony (the underlying chord progression) and its relationship with the melody into consideration.
So yeah, modes can certainly be described as the notes of x major scale “starting on a different note”, but that definition doesn’t really say anything about what modes are and what they can be used for.
When you change the root note you’re also changing the intervals between some of the notes so you can and should think relative moods. As I Said earlier and although not modes as such the easiest way to hear this is to play A minor pentatonic and then C major pentatonic. Both have exactly the same notes rearranged and sound totally different. Modes are exactly the same with two additional identical notes.
Hey Matt,
That’s good mate. Not quite sure though what point you’re trying to make here re your reference to me.
It appears you’re still misunderstanding my whole point.
Of course each note of a Major scale can act as the tonic for a relative mode of that parent scale. Thats pretty obvious isn’t it? My posts were rather about this being a myopic and limiting view of modes if seen as anywhere near a complete picture.
My original post about relative modes was out of concern for a member who I thought was perhaps concentrating too much on just patterns, and the relative approach, and was perhaps not at least investigating the more complete picture. In the end, I gave up on that discussion, as that person had already ‘learnt the modes’.
Sure, relative modes are a way of looking at modes, and can be helpful in some ways; but they are only a small part of the picture; an introduction to them, if you like. They don’t really give you the true sounds of the modes. And, from my learning and playing thus far, I see this relative perspective as the minor player, compared to the parallel perspective, which I see as the ‘guts’ of modes.
Your D Dorian progression, Dm - G, which you’ve labelled as a ii - V, is not really correct. It is a i-IV progression; typical Dorian, ala Pink Floyd etc. You’re still thinking C Major here, and without any resolution, when you should be thinking D, specifically the tonality of Dm.
Your own opening statement focused on the new note, eg D in C Major, becoming the tonic, and here you want to now call it the ii because its ‘Dorian’, thus pushing your IV to now function as a V? This to me is not helpful, nor is it logical.
Why does it have that Dorian sound? Because you’ve got that raised 6 ( functioning as a Major 3rd in the IV chord, G Major) that distinguishes it from that straight minor sound; and it gives it that ‘uplifting’, sometimes ‘dreamy 'sound. And you’re going from a minor i chord to a Major IV chord. And when you’re soloing, you’d likely be hitting that raised 6 note, particularly as its also the major 3rd of that IV chord. From my view, D Dorian is much more related to Dm ( and ultimately, to D Major) , than it is to C Major.
Again with your E Phrygian example. It doesn’t just ‘seem to be the go to progression for Phrygian’ for no reason. It is, because the F Major chord contains the distinctive b2 ( its root) that distinguishes it from the natural minor scale. And hopefully the melody would hone in on that note too. That’s why its going to sound the way it does. Again, for me here, its about the difference in sound from the D minor scale, not some relative relationship to C Major. It might help you find the diatonic chords quicker, and help with finding patterns, but that’s about it.
And your Aeolian example; yep fine. But remember, Aeolian and Ionian in reality, are much more than just modes aren’t they; they’re the 2 main tonalities, Major and Minor, as they are so intrinsic in music. That’s why in the examples above, I agree with many, more experienced than I, who view it as more logical, helpful, and musical, to see the modes essentially as deviations from these 2 main tonalities; and ultimately, all derived from the Major scale.
Now, none of us are experts here; otherwise we’d likely be somewhere else.
Im just continually learning like everyone else; and over time, my understanding will hopefully refine, like everyone else’s.
At present though, leaning more heavily into the parallel perspective gives me the clearest and most obvious picture both theoretically, and practically. I hope you can see why, from above. If you see it somewhat differently thus far, after investigating all the data, that’s perfectly fine with me.
Cheers, Shane
No it’s not, and the distinction is important, and particularly with a topic like modes, where tonics and root notes are shifting around, changing quality, function etc.
‘Root’ relate to chords
‘Tonic’ relates to scales/ keys, and modes.
Is that why Justin uses a big red R for all the scales he publishes. Open your mind a little 
I’ve cut you more than enough slack mate. Now its time to call you out.
You don’t know nearly as much as you think you do. That is pretty obvious, given many of your nonsensical posts.
To me, you just sound foolish, and juvenille.
You seem to spend most of your time defending that huge hurt ego of yours, rather than engaging in mature, rational discussion.
Now go and actually investigate tonic vs root. You may, or may not just learn something.
Time to pull your head in son.
I need no slack from your delusions, now calm down dear shane, youll do yourself an injury.
Guys, with all due respect, let me recommend you check this album out before this “discussion” escalates further:
No need to be mean to each other.
Very revealing. Adieu.
Bon débarras
Frank Zappa?
Seriously. Are you trying to start an argument?!
This is like asking “If my band is playing a C major progression and I rip out an A minor solo will the solo sound like C major?” I have no idea. I just wouldn’t do that. But there are no rules in music and you could try it out for yourself. Easy if you have a looper. Maybe it would sound awful, maybe it would sound great, maybe it would sound so awful that it sounds great. Get a looper and try things. It’s fun and helps with learning modes.
Also, maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at. I dont have to start the solo on C. I can start anywhere. Starting on the tonic is just one option, and not always the most interesting one. You could start on a chord tone like the 3rd or 5th. You could start with a leading tone, something that’s a semitone above or below the tonic, in this case B. It’s a creative process.
