Who could, only after practice, sing in tune?

[dobleA]

Hi JK, I’m still finding my voice and cannot say I’ve achieved a singing level that I feel good enough to make any of my covers public, but I want to share a little of my own experience and search.

I sing to acompany my guitar playing because is fun and convenient. I’ve found useful the concept that when a person plays the guitar and sings is playing two instruments at the same time, because it makes it clear that to play the guitar and sing well a person needs to work on each one as if he or she was learning to play guitar and saxofon at the same time.

The same way that a person could be ages learning to play guitar without significant progress, it could be ages learning to sing without significant progress, if the method is following, if any, is not geared the best to his or her needs.

The other concept that some have mentioned above is that speaking and singing are not as different as it looks. Sometimes that a person does not get the best sound out of his or her throat it may be because is forcing it go out in an unnatural way (assuming singing as we speak is the natural way). The risk of injury singing in a forced way is real and something to be aware of.

I think that being able to produce a specific pitch with the voice is something that can be learnt the same than other techniques. I thought until following the advice of Chris Liepe and checking my vocal notes with the tuner that my A2 note (fifth string) was good. It was not. It was more like a D3 in the Guitartuna App (this exercise works better with a chromatic tuner or a specialized app than with Guitartuna, but it was a good start). When I manage my throat to produce an A2 (it is very low for me), I cannot sustain it or do it consistently but I know that with proper lessons and practice time I should be able to achieve it.

As different guitars have different timbres each person has a different timbre in his or her voice. You should work to enhance yours rather than fight against it. Since my practice time is very limited I am working on my voice only marginally but it is something I want to work more in the future and the same way, I have to do it the way that works better for me.

[MAT1953]

Andres @dobleA

Like you I am trying to play and sing at the same time, part way through Grade 1 guitar.
For singing I knew I had to take lessons. My first lesson was embarrassing I really just spoke the words fortunately it has got better. My teacher is very patient and have agreed with her in the next month or so I am going to take my guitar in and see what she thinks.
I started just over a month ago trying to combine the two, and at present I can play the guitar better when I am not singing and vices versa but it is starting to get better.
My earlier experiences are covered in another post, see below.

Michael

https://community.justinguitar.com/t/strumming-and-singing/86010/6?u=mat1953

[dobleA]

Although I ended touching the playing guitar and singing topic it is good to go to the original question. That is: can anyone learn to sing in tune by just practicing? That can be formulated also as: do a person have to be born a singer to be able to sing in tune? I think that if a person can hear and speak he or she can with proper training learn two skills: one, to produce vocal sounds (notes) at certain pitch and two, to use the right pitches in a sequence of sounds (melody). The first is vocal technique, the second is ear training.

I can play notes in the guitar but I cannot yet know what note to play in my guitar to replicate a note I hear in a record or in my mind. That is what a person does when tries to sing a song replicating the sounds he or she is hearing in the record or his or her mind but doesn’t know which fret and string to go in their throat fretboard. I think I do some kind of trial and error thing.

A different aspect is if the vocal sounds are nice that is very subjective. As far as I know Ringo and George of The Beatles were at the beginning limited in their vocal capabilities and were given easier to sing songs to participate in the albums. Ringo still sings in a simple way but has 20+ albums in his discography. He just developed a style that suits him.

[MAT1953]

Andres @dobleA

“do a person have to be born a singer to be able to sing in tune?”

Unfortunately I am not in position to answer that others in the community may be able to do.
Michael

[Rossco01]

@jkahn I would agree with others that you can sing. You don’t always have to be spot on in tune to sing in an acceptable way. Your performance of Hurt would be absolutely acceptable in a live environment. A little more practice and I suspect it would be even better.

I have always sung from a young age. Never in public or for performance but always for myself…quite often to the irritation of family and friends over the years. However I was never self conscious so it didn’t stop me. I never really had the courage to sing “in public” until I started playing guitar and recording for AVOYP here and whilst I haven’t done the Chris Liepe course (I really should) my singing has improved quite considerably from continuing to practice. One thing I have always been conscious of is listening to what is being sung and then trying to replicate it…from a young age it was something I did to records and whilst I don’t try to 100% replicate the vocal today I can spend a long time listening and then singing to a song to get it to sound “right”…so often it’s the phrasing as well as whether you’re intune which makes a difference. Certainly when practicing yourself or even performing it’s imperative to be able to hear yourself singing whether thats through headphones or a monitor…I find it very difficult when playing live if the monitor does not provide me good feedback.

I would definitely look at some vocal training whether thats in person or virtually. I would definitely keep practicing. Probably worth realising most people have a natural “range” but it can be improved to a degree as others have pointed out with some training.

[LievenDV]

A lot of people at work say “I can sing” and I believe I can classify myself “above average” in that department. I did get better at it but it takes a while.

I didn’t do any music academy and in primary school I was considered the guy “that could draw” while others “did music”. I never got the fun stuff to sing and the over-zealous teacher gave me the simplest stuff on purpose.

I developed some affinity for singing when discovering more than than the religion-related songs we got in school. I remember not being any good but I could remember vocal melodies very well and I knew when I was on the note or not. I liked to sing but also learned guitar.

I always had endless respect for people playing and singing at once.
I learned guitar here but didn’t sing over it for years and years; all of that came later, when the guitar parts were auto pilot.

Now I’m the only one left of my whole year doing something with music.
Years of NOT singing over guitar but solidifying that, made a lot of it muscle memory and it gave me the processor speed to actually LISTEN to myself when singing.

A lot of you guys started singing over their playing a lot earlier than I did. Yet I don’t feel sorry for that. I only got better at singing…by singing yet I always had the feeling I “had it in me somehow” since my childhood. I don’t believe in “talent” ( Tip: My view on the concept “talent” ) except for some genes, most of it is hard work made fun, fueled by passion

IF you like singing, well sing
Don’t be bitter, get better!
…by singing…listening, recording, an occassional coaching session and trying various stuff while exploring and changing your limits.

[DavidP]

@LievenDV

A lot of people at work say “I can sing”

I agree with them

[Tbushell]

A trick my girlfriend (who has sung in choirs) showed me, that helped me hear my own voice when singing along with recordings or other singers…

Plug ONE of your ears with a finger, while singing and listening.

It really helps!

[brianlarsen]

@LievenDV

I don’t believe in “talent”… except for some genes

Err… that’s the talent bit
as you say, the rest (i.e. most) of it is effective practice.

[LievenDV]

@brianlarsen

Err… that’s the talent bit
as you say, the rest (i.e. most) of it is effective practice.

yeah but with the genes I mean: his fingered are this or his brain happens to be 0.5% more suitable for … Just like some Central African gene pools seem to have some advantages in long distance running. The significance is often overrated

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

@LievenDV

Central African gene pools seem to have some advantages in long distance running

Yes but that is from centuries at living at altitude and having to travel vast distances on foot. So yes I can see how evolution plays a part in shaping their DNA. So I would guess genes play a part but how many good singers come from generations of vocal performers. So maybe not, jury is out.

But if I sing with my Levi’s or Wranger’s I sing sharp but I am to stingy to buy a larger size. My £8 ASDA Comfort fit ? Yep vocals and wallet sorted. So yes jeans play a part.

[LievenDV]

@TheMadman_tobyjenner

So yes jeans play a part.

So yeah people: best advice is: SING SING SING!
Doing the miles while being self critical and apply some methods along the way.
If I can learn how to sing, you can too. Same with guitar and drawing.
LOVING it is crucial though. yearning for it and seldom have it feel like “work”.
Jup, you get better and you CAN sing in tune for sure!

[adi_mrok]

My recommendation would be to switch monitoring on while having tour headphones plugged into the AI and just firing a song away within your voice range in the background and listening to yourself in the process whole singing. After some practice it should help you hear yourself better and keep it in tune.

Once you sort this out then there is a trick of auto piloting the guitar play so you can focus on singing bit. That also comes with practice as you probably are aware by now

If you commute just sing your lungs off in the car while playing your favourite tunes. I have a playlist on my Spotify with all the songs I want to cover one day and I just go all in, must look hilarious from the outside to others I wish I was into that more when I was commuting 1hr a day each way to work, now it’s about 10 mins so 2 songs is tops I can do unless I drive over to the gym later in the evening otherwise I just play on my wife’s nerves with all the loud singing I sometimes do

I always could hear myself and I was singing all my life mostly on my own. I was pushed a bit by my mum in my early years to go for a competition for children’s songs couple of times and once I only lost regionals with a choir who was singing with the playback on as they knew the jury and jury thought a band has a better chances moving forward. Even though I wasn’t older than 11 yo and I sang a bloody Phil Collins and Smash Mouth songs from Tarzan and Shrek which made people shocked, after all English was not my first language

You will get there JK I am sure of it, just keep practicing

[Stuartw]

Not sure I could sing in tune even with practice. I certainly can’t practice at home as would get laughed at!

[MapleBrain]

I’m currently studying guitar / music (part time) and we have to sing intervals, pentatonic and chord tones…the goal is to focus on the the note you’re about to sing and when you know the interval (root note to perfect 5th for example) then you are more likely to hit the right pitch! It takes time though but a good training (also for your playing).

Cheers
Eric

[jkahn]

Wow, this thread blew up today! Some really good advice and stories all around.

@dobleA

I’m still finding my voice and cannot say I’ve achieved a singing level that I feel good enough to make any of my covers public, but I want to share a little of my own experience and search.

Thanks for sharing your journey Andres. A lot to relate to for me. Although at some point I decided I’d release my covers to this community anyway.

@MAT1953

I started just over a month ago trying to combine the two, and at present I can play the guitar better when I am not singing and vices versa but it is starting to get better.

Looking forward to when you’re ready to share that first vocal & guitar cover, Michael.

@Rossco01

@jkahn I would agree with others that you can sing. You don’t always have to be spot on in tune to sing in an acceptable way. Your performance of Hurt would be absolutely acceptable in a live environment. A little more practice and I suspect it would be even better.

I’ve listened to quite a bit of your stuff now Jason, and I think you’re quite good. Particularly with your recent live band performances. To me, what makes “good”? Enjoyable timbre, on key, and good projection/tonality.

My Hurt performance… I think sometimes it can come across in text as if I’m self-bashing, but I’m not. I didn’t think it was close to good. In fact, shortly after I posted it I changed the Youtube link to “unlisted” so non-community people wouldn’t find it. Generally I don’t do that. What I was OK with in Hurt, is the timbre. It was more “my voice” than some of the other stuff. Wasn’t on key, though, and I can’t seem to get all 3 in single performance. The ones where I’m closer to being on the right tune, it’s not my natural singing voice.

But I have got the message loud and clear - don’t want you to think I’m a moaner, or helpless case - practice and training is key to improvement.

@LievenDV

A lot of people at work say “I can sing” and I believe I can classify myself “above average” in that department. I did get better at it but it takes a while.

“Above average” is an understatement Lieven. I’ve listened to a few of your recordings and you’re awesome. TBH it was your story that made me want to ask if it was possible to improve (and hijack the old thread). I thought - here is a guy who’s always heard the melody and been able to repeat it, who took a long time to learn to sing well. And I’m a guy that never sung on tune, played drums, and spent decades listening to rhythm heavy metal (Tool, Deftones), grunge (PJ, Nirvana), and EDM (Prodigy etc) - where vocals are not the key element. Is it even possible?

I feel a bit more like @TheMadman_tobyjenner’s journey speaks to me.

@brianlarsen

Err… that’s the talent bit
as you say, the rest (i.e. most) of it is effective practice.

I’m pretty sure that some people do have significantly more natural talent than others in singing. My kids are bloody good, without even really trying, they just have the knack for it.

@adi_mrok

If you commute just sing your lungs off in the car while playing your favourite tunes. I have a playlist on my Spotify with all the songs I want to cover one day and I just go all in, must look hilarious from the outside to others

Me too Adrian, that’s what I’m doing! Hoping it helps . And going to enrol in the Chris Liepe course shortly too.

[Socio]

@jkahn

going to enrol in the Chris Liepe course shortly too.

if you have subscribed you should receive email today for the summer enrolment which is opening. The email said enrolment opening 9am Mountain Time whatever time that is? I can only see hills from where I am.

[jkahn]

That’s the one I’m waiting for. Was going to subscribe last week but then I got busy… so fortunate timing.

[TheMadman_tobyjenner]

Well worth it guys. Check the bundle offers that are likely to come up. You may pick up some other gems if you are lucky.

[LievenDV]

Love how this thread is inspiring a lot of people around here!
Community at its finest! <3