Understanding & learning modes in their own right, as part of the major scale system and using CAGED shapes

The tonic in 1 is not consistent, so the comparitive information is pretty much useless. You are comparing relative modes.

Spot on @Matt125. Generally speaking the majority of the time you play a mode outside of practising them you would play over a drone or a modal chord backing track progression so a solo would be one mode over one key, occasonlly two and therefore if you can’t play and hear any Mode in isolation then your doing it wrong and you’ve still got work to do to learn modes. Each mode has at least one different interval how can they possibly sound alike if you play different intervals in each mode, the key is the focus on the tonal centre and the respective colour notes or differing intervals in each mode.

I may have read this wrong so apologies in advance but are we saying that all 7 modes can be played using the same pattern, but by starting the pattern in a different point for each different mode?

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Effectively yes. Dorian start on the 2 degree, Locrian start on the 7th. That is the most basic concept of modes.

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Yes,
These are called relative modes, and will give you part of the picture.

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However if you are new to Modes, start here from @Richard_close2u

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Thanks, I need to look into and visualise that

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I would also add, despite the discussion here.

5 patterns
7 modes

simples.

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See my follow up link, its all contained in Richard’s Mode series. And comprehensively so !

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Cheers for the replies!

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De nada !

Richard’s explanation is really comprehensive and also provides opportunities to not only hear the texture and colour of each mode but also to put into practice using a very selective area of the fretboard. As an outlier I’d say keep an open mind with Locrian, it really is worth exploring (isn’t it @Richard_close2u :wink: ). Plus this thread contains some views that although may work and are “not wrong” go against convention.

:sunglasses:

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I think 7 patterns but only play 5 of them in any mode :joy:

As I said

This should help.
Here is the E shaped CAGED pattern. Clearly you can use it to play a Major scale starting on the 6th string.
image
Here is a blank version
image
You are free to use any of the dots as a Tonic note.
The animation below shows what happens as you select a different tonic note. You can play all of the modes with this single pattern It works for all the other CAGED shapes as well. It’s like a cipher for the diatonic scales/modes.
modes-2

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spot on again @Matt125 :+1:

I struggle to understand why folk can’t hear the difference in relative modes. In its simplest form c major pentatonic notes and A minor pentatonic notes are relative and both have different tonics but the same five notes. Extending that by adding two further identical notes we have the same 7 identical notes in C major scale and A natural minor scale or Ionian and Aeolian. Two relative modes that sound very different using exactly the same notes. Tweak the formulas as required to change the intervals and mood for the other 5 modes, simples.

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That is very helpful, thanks vey much Matt

All good stuff although there’s a lot of bingo-lingo in this thread; some at least I know in name but do not understand sufficiently to have the ‘complete picture’ joined up in my synapses.

All I have gleaned are pov’s that seem, to me at least, to be two sides of the same coin … :man_shrugging:

I have referred myself to that bloke who usually talks in language I understand … @Richard_close2u

Keep it fun … :sunglasses:

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Its’ not just about “the major scale starting on a different note”. It’s about that different note of the major scale acting as the tonic.

This is how I see it. It’s quite straightforward.

I’ll do it in C.

So I build my C scale CDEFGAB. I now build my chords: C Dm Em F G Am Bdim. This is my Cmajor “construct” for want of a better term.
This construct isn’t anything until I choose one of the notes as the tonic note. I am free to use any of the notes as my tonic. If C is my tonic then I’m in the key of C major. If A is my tonic I’m in the key of A minor. Notice that the key signatures are the same for both. The key signature is informing me that I am using the C major construct.
.
.

Example 1. C acting as the tonic. (very, very, very common)
Ok so I want to build a C major song. Easy enough. My progression will use the C, F and G chords. A I-IV-V progression. Sounds familiar! My playing will emphasise the C chord. My bass player will drone on the C note just to make it absolutely clear that C is the tonic. Now I improvise with the C major scale. I’ll go on a musical journey from and to C.

Example 2. D acting as the tonic.
I want to write a dorian song and improvise in D dorian. Easy enough. I’ll choose the Dminor chord and the G major chord as my progression. A ii-V progression. Just to make it clear that D is my tonic I’ll have my bass player drone on the D note. Now I improvise using D dorian.

Example 3. E acting as the tonic
I want to write a Phrygian piece and improvise in E Phyrgian. Easy enough. I’ll choose the Em and the F major chords as my progression. Why, because this seems to be the go to progression for phrygian. Again, I will try to emphasise that Em chord and my bass player will drone on the E note. Lots of E. Now I improvise using the E phyrgian scale.

Example 4. A as the tonic.
Ok, that’s just an A minor progression so perhaps the chords Am, Dm and Em. and so on.

That’s modes in a nutshell. It’s really that simple.

In this case the of D dorian I am using the notes DEFGABC When I use the D as the root note the intervals will become 1, 2, b3(therefore a minor mode), 4, 5, 6, b7. DEFGABC the D dorian scale. This occurs as a result of choosing D as the tonic note of my C major construct. It’s a by product of this decision. Looking at it only as a modification of the D scale is not the only way to look at it. In all my examples I’m not interested in D major. D major is not in the construct. If anything it might be more helpful to look at it as a variation of D minor or maybe look at it as a minor pentatonic with 2 added notes. All viewpoints are useful.

At the end of the day I just want to be able to find a palette of notes that I can use.

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@Matt125

There is much goodness in what you have described.
What you call the ‘C major construct’ conventional terms would call it as C being the parent major scale.
Your mention of the modal root note being played as a drone is an important one.
In my modes topic, I expand on the differences between building modal chord progressions as opposed to the common-and-garden everyday major or minor chord progressions we hear all the time. Starting from this post
.

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I undrestood that, thanks Matt